Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
This. Millions of times this.
The word "oppression" doesn't really have a meaning when you think about it. Or I guess it means someone you who disgusts you has the nerve to be in a position of power over you--but there is nothing inherently wrong with this.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
This is where the argument becomes psychotic. No one is calling for Israel to cease to exist.
Stop lying to yourself.
We want US aid to end. Period. Stand on your own two feet now.
We want needless Gazan civilian death and destruction to end.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
This is where the argument becomes psychotic. No one is calling for Israel to cease to exist.
Stop lying to yourself.
We want US aid to end. Period. Stand on your own two feet now.
We want needless Gazan civilian death and destruction to end.
Period.
Why does Israel need to stand on its own two feet? Why does it need to be a fair fight? Maybe tell Arab militaries to step it up. Tell Iran not to support Hamas. Even if U.S. aid ended Israel will use what it has and/or get aid from other countries.
You make all these commands. But remember "no" is a full sentence.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
First you said this on the previous page: Well then fight a war for it and then don't complain about the war.
Now, when the prospect of fighting that war involves the U.S. backing away from propping Israel up on a perch that cannot be reached, you want to scurry behind Uncle Sam’s legs and avoid a fight.
Sounds like you’re only prepared to fight when the outcome is guaranteed ahead of time by America.
You know what that makes you, right? No, not the clever, “better than the gentiles”, god-anointed, morally and intellectually superior genius that you apparently think you are. It makes you a morally-bankrupt coward.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
This is where the argument becomes psychotic. No one is calling for Israel to cease to exist.
Stop lying to yourself.
We want US aid to end. Period. Stand on your own two feet now.
We want needless Gazan civilian death and destruction to end.
Period.
Why does Israel need to stand on its own two feet? Why does it need to be a fair fight? Maybe tell Arab militaries to step it up. Tell Iran not to support Hamas. Even if U.S. aid ended Israel will use what it has and/or get aid from other countries.
You make all these commands. But remember "no" is a full sentence.
I hope you don’t speak for most Israelis. There is something deeply pathetic and embarrassing in dismissing the need for Israel to stand on its own two feet, while insisting that a group of refugees SHOULD be standing on their own two feet.
Forget about Israel’s eroding support in the global community. What about the damage people like you are doing to the apparently fugazi reputation of Israelis as a feisty, able to take care of itself nation of tough guys and gals. It would seem that was all sizzle, no steak. Just a bunch of weak cowards?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
Just wait until somebody comes and takes your house. You can just accept it and move on and build a new one; they’ll take that too
Isn’t that what happened to the Jews in Gaza in 2005? The Israeli government forcibly and sometimes violently removed them. Didn’t that happen to 800,000 Jews all over the middle east? Didn’t that happen to Ethiopian Jews that were persecuted in Ethiopia and IDF flew missions to save them (saved 14,000 over 48 hours)? All these people lost their houses. My family was forcibly displaced from Azerbaijan. We made a life somewhere else.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
First you said this on the previous page: Well then fight a war for it and then don't complain about the war.
Now, when the prospect of fighting that war involves the U.S. backing away from propping Israel up on a perch that cannot be reached, you want to scurry behind Uncle Sam’s legs and avoid a fight.
Sounds like you’re only prepared to fight when the outcome is guaranteed ahead of time by America.
You know what that makes you, right? No, not the clever, “better than the gentiles”, god-anointed, morally and intellectually superior genius that you apparently think you are. It makes you a morally-bankrupt coward.
Your whole argument is basically "man up". Doesn't apply to diplomacy and geopolitics. Nothing wrong with country working with another country for common security goals.
I am not Jewish.
Your entire last paragraph is a stereotype session on Jews.
And yes, the only way you will wipe Israel off a map is through a war. Your call for a fair fight is your call for it to surrender. Why would it do that. Why would the U.S. support that?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
This is where the argument becomes psychotic. No one is calling for Israel to cease to exist.
Stop lying to yourself.
We want US aid to end. Period. Stand on your own two feet now.
We want needless Gazan civilian death and destruction to end.
Period.
I want US aid to end, too! Then Israel doesn’t have to ask US for permission to conduct military operations in the ME. Coward Bibi waiting 3 weeks to send in ground forces, cowering to Biden and Blinken’s pressure instead of sending in troops to save the hostages. I want the aid to stop so Israel can do as it chooses.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
This is where the argument becomes psychotic. No one is calling for Israel to cease to exist.
Stop lying to yourself.
We want US aid to end. Period. Stand on your own two feet now.
We want needless Gazan civilian death and destruction to end.
Period.
Why does Israel need to stand on its own two feet? Why does it need to be a fair fight? Maybe tell Arab militaries to step it up. Tell Iran not to support Hamas. Even if U.S. aid ended Israel will use what it has and/or get aid from other countries.
You make all these commands. But remember "no" is a full sentence.
I hope you don’t speak for most Israelis. There is something deeply pathetic and embarrassing in dismissing the need for Israel to stand on its own two feet, while insisting that a group of refugees SHOULD be standing on their own two feet.
Forget about Israel’s eroding support in the global community. What about the damage people like you are doing to the apparently fugazi reputation of Israelis as a feisty, able to take care of itself nation of tough guys and gals. It would seem that was all sizzle, no steak. Just a bunch of weak cowards?
You mistakenly think of world affairs like a middle school fight. The stand up like a man and defend yourself on your own makes no sense. Lots of projection here about what Isreal thinks other countries think about it, all of that was made up in your head. Also, why would one country think about what another country thinks about it on that petty of a level.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Palestinians wanting to turn back time is not an American emergency. We are not going back to mid 1940s. Gen Z's are not going to rise up in 20 years and declare Israel a state sponsor of terrorism and declare war against it. Find another dream.
Who wants a war? People just want an arms embargo and an end to aid
Yes, because you want what you call "a fair fight", in which Israel is on par militarily with its enemies, so it can be taken down
lol so you DO care
So to you, proper American neutrality is to pretend we are unaware of your end goal?
First you said this on the previous page: Well then fight a war for it and then don't complain about the war.
Now, when the prospect of fighting that war involves the U.S. backing away from propping Israel up on a perch that cannot be reached, you want to scurry behind Uncle Sam’s legs and avoid a fight.
Sounds like you’re only prepared to fight when the outcome is guaranteed ahead of time by America.
You know what that makes you, right? No, not the clever, “better than the gentiles”, god-anointed, morally and intellectually superior genius that you apparently think you are. It makes you a morally-bankrupt coward.
Your whole argument is basically "man up". Doesn't apply to diplomacy and geopolitics. Nothing wrong with country working with another country for common security goals.
I am not Jewish.
Your entire last paragraph is a stereotype session on Jews.
And yes, the only way you will wipe Israel off a map is through a war. Your call for a fair fight is your call for it to surrender. Why would it do that. Why would the U.S. support that?
The flaw in your argument is this idea that there needs to be a fight. Why? Why do you insist on arguing that a fight has to occur when the U.S. simply backs away from the table, from this awful meal it’s been gagging through for decades?
Israel dragged the U.S. into OIF with intentionally false intelligence. There have been other examples of treachery - USS Liberty, Pollard, etc. Maybe without U.S. protection, Israel will have to find a path of pragmatism. Maybe a peace agreement can be reached. Maybe a constant conflict can end.
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