Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

Hamas can (and should be) removed with targeted, precision strikes particularly against their leadership. Deny them a massive recruiting tool of the last months AND make them a less attractive option. You’ll recall after the Munich Olympics, the Israeli response wasn’t 2000lb bombs dropped on children? I think Israel would have overwhelming international support for such action. They would have mine.

Now let’s talk about these innocent deaths you consider heartbreaking “for all involved”. If something is heartbreaking and entirely avoidable, then you stop it. Since there’s no stopping in sight, it’s clear that we’re not supposed to be “heartbroken” by the death of innocent babies in hospital beds. And that we’re *not* supposed to look at that and demand it stop is a real condemnation of those who support the current action.

There are over a hundred hostages still being held. Innocent israeli babies were killed too and it was celebrated in the streets worldwide. The suffering is on both sides and ongoing. Consider who you’re aligning yourself with.

Only 1 baby is on the Israeli death toll. What happened to the 40 babies that were beheaded by Hamas?

First of all, you’re wrong and you’re reading fake news.

Second, what about the misfired Palestinian missile that “hit a hospital” and was blamed on Israel for killing hundreds? Turns out it wasn’t fired by Israel, didn’t hit a hospital, didn’t kill hundreds.

Stop deflecting. Israel has destroyed EVERY HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL CENTER in Gaza.

EVERY.SINGLE.ONE.

Israel is the agressor. Israeli’s are the terrorists now. Deal with it

Your side is losing. Deal with that. You danced in the streets on October 7 but are crying now. Don’t F with Israel again.

No one danced in the street on oct 7 - but obviously you’ve convinced yourself of that because you need to perpetually be the victim as well as the agressor.

Secondly i dont care about who wins - israel was always going to outgun Palestine with NO ARMY and israel being completely propped up by daddy genocide joe.

What could have gone differently is that israel could have gone after hamas tactfully and treated innocent Palestinians within the boundaries of the geneva convention.

BUT

israel has gone full insanity and is killing babies women children at will. Bombing entire blocks at a time. That is what the world is watching and commenting on.

This will not be forgotten.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/dec/24/biden-says-he-did-not-ask-for-a-ceasefire-in-call-with-netanyahu-video

Oh really, didn’t celebrate did they? Palestinians flooded the streets on October 7 in jubilation https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns. You reap what you sow. Also, how does one go after Hamas tactfully? Does saying please and thank you, sufficient?

Tactically and tactfully don't mean the same thing, the pp probably did not intend the interpretion you rolled with.

He wrote tactfully, so I am rolling with what tactfully actually means.

It’s she, and PP is right i meant tactically. This is not how modern warfare is done. This has been the highest number of murdered children in two months EVER.

More bombs have been dropped than ever seen.

Whats become clear is that israel views all Palestinians from womb to wheelchair as hamas. It shows the current complete brainwashing of Israelis. They are without any moral compass.

Your she/he designation is of little relevance to this conversation. And Palestinians see Israelis womb to wheelchair as occupiers. Comity mass rapes, murders, and kidnappings. The civilian population largely supports Hamas. One of the killed hostages, Vivian Silver, led a march for peace on October 6. She was killed by Hamas on October 7. Peace activism only gets you so far. October 7 will push Israeli society further to the right. Neither side is going to forget.

Bibi supported hamas for years… your point?

No do all the innocent (8000!) kids that have been blown to bits. I’m sure they were also wonderful people.

What’s your point about Bibi? Did he somehow magically use Jewish space lasers to make Gazans and the Wb celebrate October 7 in the streets?

But if supporting hamas = deserve to be killed en masse, what about Bibi?

These are your words PP

I have no idea what you asking, because in your mind Bibi=Hamas. It’s a twisted logic, which you are bending this way and that way to fit your delusional narrative. Even if I despised Bibi for corruption and his self serving politics, I can clearly see that he is not equal to Hamas by any stretch of imagination, so no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

Actually, I am clearly stating that national
borders are not etched in stone. But if Palestinians want to wait 200 years to see if Israel is magically swallowed by the Mediterranean, they are welcome to do so. In the meantime, they will not have a state, and their future will remain pretty bleak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

Hamas can (and should be) removed with targeted, precision strikes particularly against their leadership. Deny them a massive recruiting tool of the last months AND make them a less attractive option. You’ll recall after the Munich Olympics, the Israeli response wasn’t 2000lb bombs dropped on children? I think Israel would have overwhelming international support for such action. They would have mine.

Now let’s talk about these innocent deaths you consider heartbreaking “for all involved”. If something is heartbreaking and entirely avoidable, then you stop it. Since there’s no stopping in sight, it’s clear that we’re not supposed to be “heartbroken” by the death of innocent babies in hospital beds. And that we’re *not* supposed to look at that and demand it stop is a real condemnation of those who support the current action.

There are over a hundred hostages still being held. Innocent israeli babies were killed too and it was celebrated in the streets worldwide. The suffering is on both sides and ongoing. Consider who you’re aligning yourself with.

Only 1 baby is on the Israeli death toll. What happened to the 40 babies that were beheaded by Hamas?

First of all, you’re wrong and you’re reading fake news.

Second, what about the misfired Palestinian missile that “hit a hospital” and was blamed on Israel for killing hundreds? Turns out it wasn’t fired by Israel, didn’t hit a hospital, didn’t kill hundreds.

What is your source for the first claim?

Only one baby is among those killed on October 7. Another baby died shortly after birth after their mother was shot that day. This is based on two articles from this month.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/amp/

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

[Anonymous]

Pray tell? Why is the IDF bombing Lebanese Christian Nuns?

https://dohanews.co/israel-attacks-600-year-old-monastery-in-south-lebanon-a-day-before-christmas-eve/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?

No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.

However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.

But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?

No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.

However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.

But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?

Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?

[Anonymous]

Assuming that Palestinians who were forcibly exiled from their land in 1948 and Israel refuses to let them or their descendants return, why not discuss reparations?
Give them $$ to move on and forfeit any future claims. Israel could pay the bulk of it but all the countries that supported the creation of Israel on occupied land should also chip in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that Palestinians who were forcibly exiled from their land in 1948 and Israel refuses to let them or their descendants return, why not discuss reparations?
Give them $$ to move on and forfeit any future claims. Israel could pay the bulk of it but all the countries that supported the creation of Israel on occupied land should also chip in

As a proud Zionist, I would actually support this idea. If someone has a a legitimate deed, or other way to prove that they were displaced, give them reparations in todays $$$ of what that land costs but under conditions that they recognize the state of Israel and denounce all terroristic activities or support.

[Anonymous]

Too bad, Israel was not created as a territory of the US. We could have taken one of the least populated states and used that to create an independent territory of Israel. Or Canada could have donated land given that Canada has been heavily recruiting immigrants to come live there. It seems crazy to create Israel in a place where people were already living and who were forced to accept the creation of a Jewish state against their wishes.
How could anyone not predict that it would be a disaster?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that Palestinians who were forcibly exiled from their land in 1948 and Israel refuses to let them or their descendants return, why not discuss reparations?
Give them $$ to move on and forfeit any future claims. Israel could pay the bulk of it but all the countries that supported the creation of Israel on occupied land should also chip in

As a proud Zionist, I would actually support this idea. If someone has a a legitimate deed, or other way to prove that they were displaced, give them reparations in todays $$$ of what that land costs but under conditions that they recognize the state of Israel and denounce all terroristic activities or support.

But then Arab countries need to pay reparations to 800,000 Jews who left without their property.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that Palestinians who were forcibly exiled from their land in 1948 and Israel refuses to let them or their descendants return, why not discuss reparations?
Give them $$ to move on and forfeit any future claims. Israel could pay the bulk of it but all the countries that supported the creation of Israel on occupied land should also chip in

How many centuries back should the entire world go in making reparations to displaced peoples?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Too bad, Israel was not created as a territory of the US. We could have taken one of the least populated states and used that to create an independent territory of Israel. Or Canada could have donated land given that Canada has been heavily recruiting immigrants to come live there. It seems crazy to create Israel in a place where people were already living and who were forced to accept the creation of a Jewish state against their wishes.
How could anyone not predict that it would be a disaster?

Imagine where US economy would be today if all that Israeli scientific innovation and medical discoveries were all ours. One can only dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/israel-gaza-santa-fired-sag-harbor-dorph/index.html

This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .

This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”

In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.

If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.

This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.

Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.

Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.

The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.

As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?

Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.

Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?

I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.

Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?

I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.

But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.

DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.

First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.

Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.

In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.

I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).

Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.

How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?

It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.

So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?

Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?

So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?

No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.

However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.

But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?

Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?

Yes that is pretty good summation of the life of Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the West Bank. Settlers are given roads Palestinians can’t drive on, access to water they cannot drink, the legal system favors Israeli settlers— you’ll notice how few are prosecuted for atrocities against Palestinians— so you’ve identified a very fair comparison.