Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just highlighting this for all of the "I just can't believe it" posters.

This Helo pilot is literally saying YOU CAN'T SEE THE PLANES from a helo at night in that area.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aifnckN6nfM

Perspective of a military helo pilot who flew that route

Now, we need to have a serious debate about the helos being there at all. But the helo did not suicide into this plane.

I mean, I don't think you can rule anything out at this stage. It certainly seems likely that this was not intentional, but I don't think we can say that 100% certain yet.

HOWEVER, people who are looking at the video and thinking that is strong evidence this was intentional need to stop and remember something very simple--space is three-dimensional. You simply cannot make any comparison to 'it's as if you drove into a semi' or that sort of thing. I think people are imagining this as though they are looking at an overhead view of a highway collision, which it simply isn't. Most obviously, it's clear that there is elevation change with the jet descending and the helo ascending, but just looking at the video people are imagining it as though they were at identical elevations the entire time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just highlighting this for all of the "I just can't believe it" posters.

This Helo pilot is literally saying YOU CAN'T SEE THE PLANES from a helo at night in that area.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aifnckN6nfM

Perspective of a military helo pilot who flew that route

Now, we need to have a serious debate about the helos being there at all. But the helo did not suicide into this plane.

This is not definitive.

(1) This is one guy.

(2) Just because sometimes a helicopter pilot can't see a plane in front of them on this route does not mean that the helicopters can NEVER see planes in front of them. If you listen, that's not even what this guys says. We don't know if the helicopter could see the plane or not. People are speculating.

(3) Everything this guy says would speak to the importance of staying low and to the east through that corridor. If it is truly standard that helicopter pilots flying this route simply cannot see oncoming plane traffic landing at National, then I'd expect these pilots to adhere tightly to the flight route which is designed to keep them away from oncoming planes *even if they can't see them.*

I am not one of the people speculating suicide or homicide (we have ZERO evidence of either) but I also am tired of people acting as though we know what happened just because some pilots have stated that it CAN be hard to see a plane nose-to-nose in that situation.

You are actually jumping to conclusions as aggressively as the people claiming it's definitely a suicide mission.

We don't know what happened.

Ever heard the saying, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras? Alternatively known as Occam's Razor. I'm just a statistics sort of person.

[Anonymous]

Guys. Kobe's "expert" pilot literally flew into the side of a f&%@ing mountain. Accidentally.

Helos are scary. Accidents happen all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPiNC5JpEYs

THis is ATC from the day before. Follow PAT 11 (another helicopter). Three times there are warnings due to the helicopter and plane being so close (he red CA). On one occasion, the plane has to do a go around to avoid the helicopter.

From reading on a pilot forum, the biggest issue here is the airspace use with helicopters flying under planes at low altitide and the fact that anyone is allowed to use visual separation at night in a busy air space. None of them think this was intentional and most believe the helicopter pilot didn't see the CRJ until 2-3 seconds before the collision. The CRJ was at 280 ft at the time of the collision and it isn't unsual for a helicopter to bounce up 50'. The forum of airplane pilots place little blame on anyone but rather on the procedures and normalization of unsafe flight paths that led to this situation. They also have access to records of dozens of nearly identical near misses in the same locations that were reported by ATC or a heli pilot or a plane pilot.

It links to a different (Vegas) incident. Can you provide the correct link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guys. Kobe's "expert" pilot literally flew into the side of a f&%@ing mountain. Accidentally.

Helos are scary. Accidents happen all the time.

Yes, but the weather and visibility were an issue that night. It was clear, though breezy when this accident occurred.

[Anonymous]

FAA has now restricted helos from DCA's airspace.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Wow these videos. I know looks can be deceiving but it just looks...so intentional. How do you not notice a jet flying at you. Do Blackhawks not have windows on the side? Are there blind spots?

Plexiglass bubble, and they were way above the tree line so no excuse not to see or look slightly left at a plane lining up for runway 33.
Plus the fact that ATC told them the facts twice.

At night it can be hard to tell if a stationary light in the sky is a light on the ground, or a light from a plane traveling directly at you. I help my dad spot traffic in his plane whenever I see him, and have since I was a teen, and night flying can be tricky because of that even in clear conditions.

East of the river is mainly anacostia resi lights, that’s it. Street lights or car lights. Nothing with huge belonging ring lights and the big bright white landing floodlight.

This is insane.

I hope all DC area military exercises are halted.

And VIP flights. This may have been one.

It definitely was one. A training flight doesn't take off from Langley. They were dropping someone off.

That’s what I think. The “training” part is covering for someone. Just my opinion.

I’m the one who thinks the current government will lie about such details.

PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Wow these videos. I know looks can be deceiving but it just looks...so intentional. How do you not notice a jet flying at you. Do Blackhawks not have windows on the side? Are there blind spots?

This looks exactly like two vehicles coming into a crossroads, neither automatically had the other in sight, neither maneuvered as if they did.

Except the better analogy would be a car approaching GW parkway from a side road and not looking before crossing. Oh and this car has 360 glass all around so no blind spots and the traffic on GW are all 18 wheelers.

And the driver was told before merging ‘do you see that 18 wheeler’ and the driver replying ‘yes’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So some of you think it's MORE believable that the Helo pilots were homicidal/suicidal rather than merely undertrained/improperly focused on their job?

I just cannot believe the BH was unaware. Given all the psychologically unwell people in this country, I don't know why intentional sabotage is so outside realm of possibility.

But by three people?? That seems really unlikely that three people are in the same BH and so mentally disturbed that they are not only suicidal but willing to kill a plane full of people.

The non-pilot was likely oblivious and just along for the ride in the back.
Perhaps the instructor took control and the student pilot just went with it. Chain of command and all--you don't question. Who knows. It's not outside the realm of possibilities.

The prevailing theory behind the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight 370 is suicide and there were 3 pilots on board. Unfortunately intent is almost impossible to prove after the fact. 🙁

No. That’s not how that works according to aviation pros.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just highlighting this for all of the "I just can't believe it" posters.

This Helo pilot is literally saying YOU CAN'T SEE THE PLANES from a helo at night in that area.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aifnckN6nfM

Perspective of a military helo pilot who flew that route

Now, we need to have a serious debate about the helos being there at all. But the helo did not suicide into this plane.

This is not definitive.

(1) This is one guy.

(2) Just because sometimes a helicopter pilot can't see a plane in front of them on this route does not mean that the helicopters can NEVER see planes in front of them. If you listen, that's not even what this guys says. We don't know if the helicopter could see the plane or not. People are speculating.

(3) Everything this guy says would speak to the importance of staying low and to the east through that corridor. If it is truly standard that helicopter pilots flying this route simply cannot see oncoming plane traffic landing at National, then I'd expect these pilots to adhere tightly to the flight route which is designed to keep them away from oncoming planes *even if they can't see them.*

I am not one of the people speculating suicide or homicide (we have ZERO evidence of either) but I also am tired of people acting as though we know what happened just because some pilots have stated that it CAN be hard to see a plane nose-to-nose in that situation.

You are actually jumping to conclusions as aggressively as the people claiming it's definitely a suicide mission.

We don't know what happened.

Ever heard the saying, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras? Alternatively known as Occam's Razor. I'm just a statistics sort of person.

The problem is that "the simplest explanation is probably the right one" could lead people directly to suicide. Because it's very simple -- why would a helicopter fly right into an airplane? Death wish I guess.

The explanations about visibility along that route at night complicate that kind of conclusion though. It's an alternate theory -- maybe the helicopter literally could not see the plane. Worth looking into! But is that automatically more simple or elegant an explanation? Not even a little. While pilots sometimes can't see oncoming planes, perhaps even often can't see them, it is not true that they can never see them. In fact we already have evidence that helicopters can at least sometimes see them, even at night, as we look at these other "near misses" where in some cases the helicopters shifted course to avoid collision.

The "horses not zebras" advice is designed for, for instance, ER doctors who are constantly faced with people facing life threatening symptoms and need to diagnose and treat quickly to save lives. They are trained to go for the simplest and most likely explanation because 9/10 times it will be correct and they'll save a life. Whereas if they sit around examining all possible explanations, people will die waiting.

But this is the opposite situation. People have already died. The cause is already an event that is extremely out of the ordinary -- a midair collision. We don't need to make a snap judgment about what is most likely here. We need to take our time, examine all possible explanations, and try to get it 100% right. This is not a situation where Occam's razor applies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FAA has now restricted helos from DCA's airspace.

How will all those VIPs get home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys. Kobe's "expert" pilot literally flew into the side of a f&%@ing mountain. Accidentally.

Helos are scary. Accidents happen all the time.

Yes, but the weather and visibility were an issue that night. It was clear, though breezy when this accident occurred.

Plenty of BTDT pilots HAVE stated that visibility is an issue at night in that area. Keep up.

[Anonymous]

Does a black hawk helicopter have duplicate controls for a pilot and a copilot? Can you disable one or the other for training purposes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPiNC5JpEYs

THis is ATC from the day before. Follow PAT 11 (another helicopter). Three times there are warnings due to the helicopter and plane being so close (he red CA). On one occasion, the plane has to do a go around to avoid the helicopter.

From reading on a pilot forum, the biggest issue here is the airspace use with helicopters flying under planes at low altitide and the fact that anyone is allowed to use visual separation at night in a busy air space. None of them think this was intentional and most believe the helicopter pilot didn't see the CRJ until 2-3 seconds before the collision. The CRJ was at 280 ft at the time of the collision and it isn't unsual for a helicopter to bounce up 50'. The forum of airplane pilots place little blame on anyone but rather on the procedures and normalization of unsafe flight paths that led to this situation. They also have access to records of dozens of nearly identical near misses in the same locations that were reported by ATC or a heli pilot or a plane pilot.

The helos shouldn't even be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Wow these videos. I know looks can be deceiving but it just looks...so intentional. How do you not notice a jet flying at you. Do Blackhawks not have windows on the side? Are there blind spots?

This looks exactly like two vehicles coming into a crossroads, neither automatically had the other in sight, neither maneuvered as if they did.

Except the better analogy would be a car approaching GW parkway from a side road and not looking before crossing. Oh and this car has 360 glass all around so no blind spots and the traffic on GW are all 18 wheelers.

And the driver was told before merging ‘do you see that 18 wheeler’ and the driver replying ‘yes’

Again. This is space. Space is 3d. Landing aircraft are descending at hundreds of feet per minute and the helicopter rose sharply. Please stop with the analogies about road conditions.