Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

I just voluntarily visited a foreign-born doctor. Why? Because he's supposed to be outstanding and I have a weird rare condition that isn't getting diagnosed properly. He was the first doctor who probably identified the root cause. Glad he is here!

[Anonymous]

Have a child who also has an uncommon condition and her foreign medical graduate doctor is a pioneer in the procedure that has turned around her life.

It is difficult for a foreign medical graduate to get into the most competitive residencies in the U.S., so for those specialties the U.S. often is in the position of skimming the cream of the crop of foreign doctors.

It is in the less competitive (read less remunerative) specialties like family medicine and pediatrics that residency slots go begging for US med school graduates and get filled less selectively by foreign medical graduates. These are the areas of medicine that most people normally interact with so they are encountering the less competitive foreign med school graduates. They do not come under nearly the scrutiny given to foreign graduates who make it into the most prized residencies.

[Anonymous]

If you can't hack it in UNDEGRAD ochem, anat and phys, biochem, etc. what the heck makes you think you'd be able to do so in medical school?

[Anonymous]

Medical graduates per 100,000 people, 2017.

Ireland: 24.4
Australia: 15.9
Belgium: 14.8
Netherlands: 14.4
Spain: 13.3
UK: 12.8
Mexico: 12.6
Italy: 12.3
Finland: 12
Germany: 11.7
Poland: 10.5
Turkey: 9.9
France: 9.1
Chile: 8.7
Canada: 7.9
US: 7.5
Japan: 6.8
Israel: 6.7

(OECD)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:By weeding out, you mean the students perform poorly in the courses needed to become a doctoral level scientist. Not sure how to get around that.

I have a PhD and often have to review the applications of students who sincerely want to pursue a PhD in my field. Their grades and standardized test scores however, suggest that they will not complete graduate school successfully. We would do them a disservice to admit them to an expensive, time-consuming (5-7 year) process...if all indications are they will not finish with the degree at the end.

suggests they are not "verified brilliant".

[Anonymous]

They are needed to serve in underserved areas. American born, American trained MDs do not want to live and work in rural Indiana, no matter how much you pay them.
I don’t know much about it, but there are only certain places where a J-1 visa will be accepted, so many foreign MDs are forced into these rural areas for several years before they can go to the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you can't hack it in UNDEGRAD ochem, anat and phys, biochem, etc. what the heck makes you think you'd be able to do so in medical school?

In many countries students start medical school right after high school. They do 5 years of medical studies then at least 2 more years of residency. The focus is on applied sciences instead of just solving chemical equations and problems which have little to do in preparing a student for the medical field. DS is a a biochemistry major and I can truly say that during the 1980’s war in Lebanon, I received a better education with much better professors than he is currently having in the capital of the USA. Foreign educated doctors also find ways to manage symptoms instead of going right away for surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest attends a top college and she's not pursuing pre-med but many of her friends are (or were). These pre-med girls (and boys) are verified brilliant, with grit and outgoing genuinely nice personalities. Yet their college and every top 100 American university weeds out at least 50% of them. Can someone tell me why? These kids go from wanting to serve people to becoming "consultants" or wall street money changers or lawyers. This has to be the most ass backwards disservice to health care in this country. Then we import Asia and Middle East-trained MDs with subpar training and awful bedside manner. I just don't get it.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2017/06/03/the-pre-med-drop-out/

Are the kids self-selecting out for some reason (Too tough, too much work, not enough IQ HP, want to have more fun, too dry?, etc. ) or is OP saying the schools are challenging them to stay or drop or hazing?

Just find some engineering buddies and laugh your way through all the 6 hour labs and tests! And once you're 21 go out for some beer afterwards. Women included.

[Anonymous]

the Med Schools in the Caribbean are a fantastic value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:About the # of foreigners in US med schools: my understanding is that US med schools generally won't accept pre-requisites completed at non-US colleges/universities (with very limited exceptions for Canadian and certain UK universities). So, the only way for a "foreigner" to go to med school in the US is to have also gone to undergrad in US or to have completed pre-reqs (such as in a post-bacc program) in the US.

Not the OP, but my DD is interested in the medical professions. She has a lot of other interests as well. Rather than select college specifically for pre-med, we are thinking that she should choose a college based on overall fit for all her interests. And potentially, just do a post-bacc if she ultimately decides that she wants to go to the med school route.

If undergrad pre-med is so brutal, why do more students not do a post-bacc? (I'm sure cost is a reason, but we are thinking that a more inexpensive undergrad followed by a "prestigious" post-bacc could cost the same or less than pre-med at a "prestigious" undergrad).

Thread is about importing foreign trained MDs after flushing out most of our domestic best and brightest during undergrad. We literally push millions of wicked smart American kids into pointless financial services and consulting because they couldn't ace organic chemistry?! It's insanity.

I am a PhD not an MD. As part of my grad work, I taught (teaching assistant) and tutored pre-med students in organic chem. I assure you the standards are not too high. Most pre-med students did not have a deep understanding of .org chem (they dealt with it by memorizing). You could always tell the pre-med versus the chem students (or engineering students). Really it’s a pretty low bar to do well on organic chem. I would hope a doctor treating me or my kid could hack it.

Yes! The science and engineering students (chemical, materials, environmental) kids Are the only ones in organic classes I have taught seem to really understand the course. Premed students for the most part are focused on the grade and memorize their way through things. You really don’t want a doc that can’t ace undergrad org chem. It is just not that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the Med Schools in the Caribbean are a fantastic value.

LOL!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are needed to serve in underserved areas. American born, American trained MDs do not want to live and work in rural Indiana, no matter how much you pay them.
I don’t know much about it, but there are only certain places where a J-1 visa will be accepted, so many foreign MDs are forced into these rural areas for several years before they can go to the city.

I don't think this has happened by design as your statement would imply.

But, US med schools graduate enough MDs to fill only 75% of the available residencies. Foreign medical graduates fill the rest. Unless they are truly outstanding, they tend to get the least desirable residencies by specialty, geography, and institution.

It is true that many US med school graduates eschew jobs in more rural areas and in flyover areas. But according to the latest Medscape doctor compensation report, the states with the highest doctor compensation are in those areas. Oklahoma was number one.

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2019-compensation-overview-6011286?src=WNL_physrep_190410_comp2019&uac=53250MN&impID=1933305&faf=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:About the # of foreigners in US med schools: my understanding is that US med schools generally won't accept pre-requisites completed at non-US colleges/universities (with very limited exceptions for Canadian and certain UK universities). So, the only way for a "foreigner" to go to med school in the US is to have also gone to undergrad in US or to have completed pre-reqs (such as in a post-bacc program) in the US.

Not the OP, but my DD is interested in the medical professions. She has a lot of other interests as well. Rather than select college specifically for pre-med, we are thinking that she should choose a college based on overall fit for all her interests. And potentially, just do a post-bacc if she ultimately decides that she wants to go to the med school route.

If undergrad pre-med is so brutal, why do more students not do a post-bacc? (I'm sure cost is a reason, but we are thinking that a more inexpensive undergrad followed by a "prestigious" post-bacc could cost the same or less than pre-med at a "prestigious" undergrad).

Thread is about importing foreign trained MDs after flushing out most of our domestic best and brightest during undergrad. We literally push millions of wicked smart American kids into pointless financial services and consulting because they couldn't ace organic chemistry?! It's insanity.

I am a PhD not an MD. As part of my grad work, I taught (teaching assistant) and tutored pre-med students in organic chem. I assure you the standards are not too high. Most pre-med students did not have a deep understanding of .org chem (they dealt with it by memorizing). You could always tell the pre-med versus the chem students (or engineering students). Really it’s a pretty low bar to do well on organic chem. I would hope a doctor treating me or my kid could hack it.

Yes! The science and engineering students (chemical, materials, environmental) kids Are the only ones in organic classes I have taught seem to really understand the course. Premed students for the most part are focused on the grade and memorize their way through things. You really don’t want a doc that can’t ace undergrad org chem. It is just not that hard.

Wait. Are you guys saying that a student majoring in chemistry and planning to get a PhD in that subject has a better understanding of organic chemistry than a classics major who is just taking ochem as a requirement to apply to medical school? Mind blown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest attends a top college and she's not pursuing pre-med but many of her friends are (or were). These pre-med girls (and boys) are verified brilliant, with grit and outgoing genuinely nice personalities. Yet their college and every top 100 American university weeds out at least 50% of them. Can someone tell me why? These kids go from wanting to serve people to becoming "consultants" or wall street money changers or lawyers. This has to be the most ass backwards disservice to health care in this country. Then we import Asia and Middle East-trained MDs with subpar training and awful bedside manner. I just don't get it.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2017/06/03/the-pre-med-drop-out/

Simple.

Brilliant foreigners are ten times more brilliant than those "brilliant" girls you know.

They have been exposed to much more challenging learning environments and learned a ton in the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:By weeding out, you mean the students perform poorly in the courses needed to become a doctoral level scientist. Not sure how to get around that.

I have a PhD and often have to review the applications of students who sincerely want to pursue a PhD in my field. Their grades and standardized test scores however, suggest that they will not complete graduate school successfully. We would do them a disservice to admit them to an expensive, time-consuming (5-7 year) process...if all indications are they will not finish with the degree at the end.

suggests they are not "verified brilliant".

Exactly.

The rest of the world cares about quality and results, not about "diversity" and soft excuses to avoid quality and results.