Hearing Testimony on FCPS Proposed CIP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also support creating an IB magnet HS program for students who want to be in the program. It would be a school where students can work toward IB certificates or IB diplomas.

Creating an IB magnet secondary school program may also work. It could be the smallest secondary school but the idea is to give IB students a school.

Update from the Gatehouse. They are considering designating Key as the IB MYP regional center and Lee as the IB regional high school. Someone prepared a presentation that explained how facilities would manage the shifting elementary feeders and the study focused on projections based on pupil placement to the new center. It would be voluntary, but the thought is that demand would exceed seats so each of the pyramids feeding into the center would get a certain amount of seats and there would be a lottery/wait-list. They are debating putting bus service into the cost projections. Without it, consolidation would save money. With it, consolidation would essentially be a wash.

This is also very preliminary.

What's crazy is that this crisis was created when the county slashed ESOL funding and threw students into Lee who were in specialized programs at the Marshall night school. They thought they could do this since the state allowed them to VGLA instead of taking the SOL. It all blew up in their faces when the state was like no more VGLA and when the assessment folks starting looking into projected SOL scores saw that Lee would very quickly get in trouble with the state.

Now, instead of just admitting they screwed up in order to save a few million in instructional compensation, people are looking at the regional IB site as a way to fix the issue without going back to the Marshall model. If they can achieve it with a cost savings, it might actually happen. If it's a wash, it's less likely. And if it's more expensive, it's DOA.

IB is more expensive so it could be a cost savings to have a regional IB program and at first glance I support this. I haven't heard what the Marshall model is as an alternative and don't have the history on this. Can you give more information?

Marshall had an evening ESOL school. It was focused on new arrivals and older learners and worked to get students to graduate. A lot of these students were over 18. Most of these students also did training in the trades. For example, a friend of mine worked there before being de-staffed and she mentioned that many of her students were working to become CNAs, so she focused on teaching English to them so they could get through the program and graduate. It was a good program, but the county cut it to save money. It was a politically unpopular program and there was little resistance since these students were not a population that would lead to blow back (compare: cutting immersion).

Was the state against this program or was it just a budget cut during the recession? Was this in addition to them going to a day school or a completely separate school?

No, the state didn't have anything to do with the program. It was a county program and the county was looking to cut programs that wouldn't cause of big blow back.

The state falls into this because these students used to take VGLA or weren't tested at SOL as new comers. The state changed its rule on testing for these types of ESOL students. That caught the county off guard. They didn't expect this to happen. Now, it's the whole exercise of showing they didn't screw up by doing something to prevent the bad consequences of their original idea.

So this is a state change, not a federal change? Is it related to ESSA or NCLB? I think it' funny that the state doesn't want to spend any additional money on ESOL students yet cares about them passing harder tests. You'd think they'd be happy to not have to pay additional money to immigrant 17 year olds. Something doesn't add up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also support creating an IB magnet HS program for students who want to be in the program. It would be a school where students can work toward IB certificates or IB diplomas.

Creating an IB magnet secondary school program may also work. It could be the smallest secondary school but the idea is to give IB students a school.

Update from the Gatehouse. They are considering designating Key as the IB MYP regional center and Lee as the IB regional high school. Someone prepared a presentation that explained how facilities would manage the shifting elementary feeders and the study focused on projections based on pupil placement to the new center. It would be voluntary, but the thought is that demand would exceed seats so each of the pyramids feeding into the center would get a certain amount of seats and there would be a lottery/wait-list. They are debating putting bus service into the cost projections. Without it, consolidation would save money. With it, consolidation would essentially be a wash.

This is also very preliminary.

What's crazy is that this crisis was created when the county slashed ESOL funding and threw students into Lee who were in specialized programs at the Marshall night school. They thought they could do this since the state allowed them to VGLA instead of taking the SOL. It all blew up in their faces when the state was like no more VGLA and when the assessment folks starting looking into projected SOL scores saw that Lee would very quickly get in trouble with the state.

Now, instead of just admitting they screwed up in order to save a few million in instructional compensation, people are looking at the regional IB site as a way to fix the issue without going back to the Marshall model. If they can achieve it with a cost savings, it might actually happen. If it's a wash, it's less likely. And if it's more expensive, it's DOA.

IB is more expensive so it could be a cost savings to have a regional IB program and at first glance I support this. I haven't heard what the Marshall model is as an alternative and don't have the history on this. Can you give more information?

Marshall had an evening ESOL school. It was focused on new arrivals and older learners and worked to get students to graduate. A lot of these students were over 18. Most of these students also did training in the trades. For example, a friend of mine worked there before being de-staffed and she mentioned that many of her students were working to become CNAs, so she focused on teaching English to them so they could get through the program and graduate. It was a good program, but the county cut it to save money. It was a politically unpopular program and there was little resistance since these students were not a population that would lead to blow back (compare: cutting immersion).

Was the state against this program or was it just a budget cut during the recession? Was this in addition to them going to a day school or a completely separate school?

No, the state didn't have anything to do with the program. It was a county program and the county was looking to cut programs that wouldn't cause of big blow back.

The state falls into this because these students used to take VGLA or weren't tested at SOL as new comers. The state changed its rule on testing for these types of ESOL students. That caught the county off guard. They didn't expect this to happen. Now, it's the whole exercise of showing they didn't screw up by doing something to prevent the bad consequences of their original idea.

So this is a state change, not a federal change? Is it related to ESSA or NCLB? I think it' funny that the state doesn't want to spend any additional money on ESOL students yet cares about them passing harder tests. You'd think they'd be happy to not have to pay additional money to immigrant 17 year olds. Something doesn't add up.

The federal laws all deferred to the states to determine testing and regulate testing. So, Virginia made this choice for who knows what reason. But it caught the county off guard. No one thought this was going to occur.

And yes, the state isn't spending on ESOL in FCPS. If anything, FCPS is somewhat screwed in terms of state funding. Rural/poorer districts get more money, fwiw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also support creating an IB magnet HS program for students who want to be in the program. It would be a school where students can work toward IB certificates or IB diplomas.

Creating an IB magnet secondary school program may also work. It could be the smallest secondary school but the idea is to give IB students a school.

Update from the Gatehouse. They are considering designating Key as the IB MYP regional center and Lee as the IB regional high school. Someone prepared a presentation that explained how facilities would manage the shifting elementary feeders and the study focused on projections based on pupil placement to the new center. It would be voluntary, but the thought is that demand would exceed seats so each of the pyramids feeding into the center would get a certain amount of seats and there would be a lottery/wait-list. They are debating putting bus service into the cost projections. Without it, consolidation would save money. With it, consolidation would essentially be a wash.

This is also very preliminary.

What's crazy is that this crisis was created when the county slashed ESOL funding and threw students into Lee who were in specialized programs at the Marshall night school. They thought they could do this since the state allowed them to VGLA instead of taking the SOL. It all blew up in their faces when the state was like no more VGLA and when the assessment folks starting looking into projected SOL scores saw that Lee would very quickly get in trouble with the state.

Now, instead of just admitting they screwed up in order to save a few million in instructional compensation, people are looking at the regional IB site as a way to fix the issue without going back to the Marshall model. If they can achieve it with a cost savings, it might actually happen. If it's a wash, it's less likely. And if it's more expensive, it's DOA.

IB is more expensive so it could be a cost savings to have a regional IB program and at first glance I support this. I haven't heard what the Marshall model is as an alternative and don't have the history on this. Can you give more information?

Marshall had an evening ESOL school. It was focused on new arrivals and older learners and worked to get students to graduate. A lot of these students were over 18. Most of these students also did training in the trades. For example, a friend of mine worked there before being de-staffed and she mentioned that many of her students were working to become CNAs, so she focused on teaching English to them so they could get through the program and graduate. It was a good program, but the county cut it to save money. It was a politically unpopular program and there was little resistance since these students were not a population that would lead to blow back (compare: cutting immersion).

Was the state against this program or was it just a budget cut during the recession? Was this in addition to them going to a day school or a completely separate school?

No, the state didn't have anything to do with the program. It was a county program and the county was looking to cut programs that wouldn't cause of big blow back.

The state falls into this because these students used to take VGLA or weren't tested at SOL as new comers. The state changed its rule on testing for these types of ESOL students. That caught the county off guard. They didn't expect this to happen. Now, it's the whole exercise of showing they didn't screw up by doing something to prevent the bad consequences of their original idea.

So this is a state change, not a federal change? Is it related to ESSA or NCLB? I think it' funny that the state doesn't want to spend any additional money on ESOL students yet cares about them passing harder tests. You'd think they'd be happy to not have to pay additional money to immigrant 17 year olds. Something doesn't add up.

The federal laws all deferred to the states to determine testing and regulate testing. So, Virginia made this choice for who knows what reason. But it caught the county off guard. No one thought this was going to occur.

And yes, the state isn't spending on ESOL in FCPS. If anything, FCPS is somewhat screwed in terms of state funding. Rural/poorer districts get more money, fwiw.

There's something missing here. Maybe federal law required certain passing requirements but didn't mandate the test used, just that they all had to be the same? The state has been removing testing due to parent demand and so not to have to spend money on this sort of thing to catch kids up. It just doesn't make sense that they'd make the law harder. Do you know what law this is even referencing?

[Anonymous]

I also don't understand how putting all the ESOL kids together somehow costs more money than educating them mainstream in an IB school. Do we know how much that cost?

[Anonymous]

I'll try to explain this in general terms. First, the feds told the states, hey, find a test and create some sort of system to determine whether children are learning. There is no federal "pass" standard. There's no rule except that the states must make up the rules and hold all of the schools in their respective states accountable.

The feds said there can be some allowances for ESOL students. It's up to the state to determine what, if any, but they need to develop a standard and apply it consistently across the state.

Virginia as we all know has the SOL. They also developed standards for when and how ESOL students would either be tested or included in a school accountability data. Up until recently, it didn't include certain students and others were allowed to take an alternative portfolio assessment -- the VGLA. That's now over.

That's one side of the story.

On the FCPS side, it had a really good ESOL program for older learners/recent arrivals. It opted to cut this program and essentially offer those students spots at certain schools (Stuart and Lee). The overwhelming majority went to Lee. Many people just opted to drop out all together, which is awful and tragic (we are assholes for not fighting to save the program but that's a whole 'nother thread).

So, Lee got a lot of new low level, older, recent arrival ESOL students (essentially the most difficult to teach because language learning gets more difficult with age). The program runs like a lot of programs that the county provides. For example, SPED has programs in specific schools and out of bounds students are bussed in for example (so let's not get it twisted, it's not controversial or crazy thing to do).

The county saved a few million by cutting instructional salaries by doing this.

Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

Enter regional IB center.

I hope this makes more sense.

[Anonymous]

Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

They have discretion. We don’t vote on testing standards. You are either wildly uninformed or choosing to make it crazy argument to not actually respond to the true question.

As. A West Springfield parent, I am concerned about this. Because it will tank the value of my home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

They have discretion. We don’t vote on testing standards. You are either wildly uninformed or choosing to make it crazy argument to not actually respond to the true question.

As. A West Springfield parent, I am concerned about this. Because it will tank the value of my home.

Who are you referring to that has discretion? I simply asked what bill was passed to change a law where Virginia decided to change its testing standards for ESOL students. I'm not choosing to make any argument. I just asked a question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

DP. It looks like this was the bill, but it then took several years before the VGLA was phased out.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+ful+CHAP0076

I understand PP to be stating that FCPS can't avail of the VGLA any longer with respect to ESOL students at Lee, and that the ESOL transitional students at Lee may threaten the school's accreditation at some point.

Turning Lee into a regional IB school would get around the accreditation issue, but likely require other Lee students to be redistricted to West Springfield, Annandale, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

They have discretion. We don’t vote on testing standards. You are either wildly uninformed or choosing to make it crazy argument to not actually respond to the true question.

As. A West Springfield parent, I am concerned about this. Because it will tank the value of my home.

And this is exactly why this IB Center will never happen. Every WS parent will be out to stop this, along with parents from a number of other schools. Here are potential courses of action (from most likely to least likely):

1) FCPS does nothing and lets Lee go under state oversight.
2) FCPS coughs up the money and reopens the night school (maybe at Marshall, maybe at one of the alternative high schools, maybe it opens more than one) - this removes the problem from Lee without causing chaos.
3) FCPS does a massive shift in boundaries in order to open an IB magnet at Lee, spreading the Lee kids over a number of different high schools, pushing WS students to LB, LB kids to Robinson, all while hoping enough students sign up for the IB magnet

Does my order seem right? With either number 1 or number 2, it would be a win just to go back to AP in place of IB.

Has the staff at Gatehouse considered the politics of this mess, particularly number 3?

[Anonymous]

I thought Lee was under-enrolled with many schools surrounding it having few IB recipients. How many kids would even be switching to Lee for IB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

They have discretion. We don’t vote on testing standards. You are either wildly uninformed or choosing to make it crazy argument to not actually respond to the true question.

As. A West Springfield parent, I am concerned about this. Because it will tank the value of my home.

And this is exactly why this IB Center will never happen. Every WS parent will be out to stop this, along with parents from a number of other schools. Here are potential courses of action (from most likely to least likely):

1) FCPS does nothing and lets Lee go under state oversight.
2) FCPS coughs up the money and reopens the night school (maybe at Marshall, maybe at one of the alternative high schools, maybe it opens more than one) - this removes the problem from Lee without causing chaos.
3) FCPS does a massive shift in boundaries in order to open an IB magnet at Lee, spreading the Lee kids over a number of different high schools, pushing WS students to LB, LB kids to Robinson, all while hoping enough students sign up for the IB magnet

Does my order seem right? With either number 1 or number 2, it would be a win just to go back to AP in place of IB.

Has the staff at Gatehouse considered the politics of this mess, particularly number 3?

You forgot the option that is just moving enough WS kids to Lee to ensure it maintains accreditation, perhaps coupled with eliminating IB at Lee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

DP. It looks like this was the bill, but it then took several years before the VGLA was phased out.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+ful+CHAP0076

I understand PP to be stating that FCPS can't avail of the VGLA any longer with respect to ESOL students at Lee, and that the ESOL transitional students at Lee may threaten the school's accreditation at some point.

Turning Lee into a regional IB school would get around the accreditation issue, but likely require other Lee students to be redistricted to West Springfield, Annandale, etc.

'

The superintendent and the school board chairman shall certify to the Board of Education, as a part of certifying compliance with the Standards of Quality, that there is a justification in the Individual Education Program for every student who takes the Virginia Grade Level Alternative.


FCPS couldn't provide justification for the VGLA? There's nothing in this bill that eliminates the VGLA. It just requires a student justification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

DP. It looks like this was the bill, but it then took several years before the VGLA was phased out.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+ful+CHAP0076

I understand PP to be stating that FCPS can't avail of the VGLA any longer with respect to ESOL students at Lee, and that the ESOL transitional students at Lee may threaten the school's accreditation at some point.

Turning Lee into a regional IB school would get around the accreditation issue, but likely require other Lee students to be redistricted to West Springfield, Annandale, etc.

That will just turn Annandale into the new Lee and drop WS way down.

They are just shuffling around a problem from a one school issue to a 2 to 3 school issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then Virginia decided to change its testing standards in a way that assessment people determine would torpedo Lee. Do they admit defeat? No.

By doing what? What bill was passed that changed the law?

DP. It looks like this was the bill, but it then took several years before the VGLA was phased out.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+ful+CHAP0076

I understand PP to be stating that FCPS can't avail of the VGLA any longer with respect to ESOL students at Lee, and that the ESOL transitional students at Lee may threaten the school's accreditation at some point.

Turning Lee into a regional IB school would get around the accreditation issue, but likely require other Lee students to be redistricted to West Springfield, Annandale, etc.

'

The superintendent and the school board chairman shall certify to the Board of Education, as a part of certifying compliance with the Standards of Quality, that there is a justification in the Individual Education Program for every student who takes the Virginia Grade Level Alternative.


FCPS couldn't provide justification for the VGLA? There's nothing in this bill that eliminates the VGLA. It just requires a student justification.

The legislature said the VDOE should phase out the VGLA and it has now done so. That wasn’t FCPS’s decision to make.