What makes kids so expensive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand how your question follows from the post above, but I was the one who mentioned our net worth and if you followed the thread -- or even just that post -- it was very clear. I mentioned it in response to a poster who said that our approach to child rearing was "making virtue out of necessity". I mentioned our net worth to prove that if we wanted to pay $50k a year for private school or $10k per summer for summer camps or $200 a month for violin/lacrosse/ice skating lessons we could -- if that was what was important to us!

I am the poster who was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of music and figure skating training. From the viewpoint of a child, I am grateful my parents did not think like you. I cherish my years at the piano and on the ice. I love the feeling of freedom and expression you get out of mastering this. You aren't providing this for your children. That's fine. The thing is this: you aren't better than anyone who is. You aren't superior. Certainly not to my parents. Camping and climbing trees mean nothing to me. You are pretending that you are a better parent because you avoid activities that cost money. And you aren't. Not at all.

I come from a state where winters were long and ice skating was nowhere near $200 a month. The school offered flute amd clarinet lessons for very little too.
I got the same as you but without the price tag. I suspect your private school was also not as good as the public I attended

But I do not have the superiority complex

I doubt very much you got the same as me because the sort of skating instruction I got did not depend on the weather. Outdoor skating, meh. Bad for the blades. (They are expensive, you know. ) We trained indoors.

Also, if you think the sort of music instruction you get in public school is remotely comparable to actual specialized, rigorous music schools, then it tells me you are simply not familiar with that system. You honestly aren't. It has nothing in common with clarinet lessons at a public school.

I did go to a public school, though. Not sure why you made up the story of a private school. You like making stuff up to bolster your argument - I noticed that when you try to slip in things like "pushy parents" and "only moderately like", without any basis.

Of course you don't have a superiority complex. Why would you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand how your question follows from the post above, but I was the one who mentioned our net worth and if you followed the thread -- or even just that post -- it was very clear. I mentioned it in response to a poster who said that our approach to child rearing was "making virtue out of necessity". I mentioned our net worth to prove that if we wanted to pay $50k a year for private school or $10k per summer for summer camps or $200 a month for violin/lacrosse/ice skating lessons we could -- if that was what was important to us!

I am the poster who was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of music and figure skating training. From the viewpoint of a child, I am grateful my parents did not think like you. I cherish my years at the piano and on the ice. I love the feeling of freedom and expression you get out of mastering this. You aren't providing this for your children. That's fine. The thing is this: you aren't better than anyone who is. You aren't superior. Certainly not to my parents. Camping and climbing trees mean nothing to me. You are pretending that you are a better parent because you avoid activities that cost money. And you aren't. Not at all.

I come from a state where winters were long and ice skating was nowhere near $200 a month. The school offered flute amd clarinet lessons for very little too.
I got the same as you but without the price tag. I suspect your private school was also not as good as the public I attended

But I do not have the superiority complex

I doubt very much you got the same as me because the sort of skating instruction I got did not depend on the weather. Outdoor skating, meh. Bad for the blades. (They are expensive, you know. ) We trained indoors.

Also, if you think the sort of music instruction you get in public school is remotely comparable to actual specialized, rigorous music schools, then it tells me you are simply not familiar with that system. You honestly aren't. It has nothing in common with clarinet lessons at a public school.

I did go to a public school, though. Not sure why you made up the story of a private school. You like making stuff up to bolster your argument - I noticed that when you try to slip in things like "pushy parents" and "only moderately like", without any basis.

Of course you don't have a superiority complex. Why would you?

You are such a horrific snob and you just have no idea how obnoxious you are. I truly hope I never come across you in real life. Wow! Almost hard to believe you aren't a troll, but then again this is DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand how your question follows from the post above, but I was the one who mentioned our net worth and if you followed the thread -- or even just that post -- it was very clear. I mentioned it in response to a poster who said that our approach to child rearing was "making virtue out of necessity". I mentioned our net worth to prove that if we wanted to pay $50k a year for private school or $10k per summer for summer camps or $200 a month for violin/lacrosse/ice skating lessons we could -- if that was what was important to us!

I am the poster who was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of music and figure skating training. From the viewpoint of a child, I am grateful my parents did not think like you. I cherish my years at the piano and on the ice. I love the feeling of freedom and expression you get out of mastering this. You aren't providing this for your children. That's fine. The thing is this: you aren't better than anyone who is. You aren't superior. Certainly not to my parents. Camping and climbing trees mean nothing to me. You are pretending that you are a better parent because you avoid activities that cost money. And you aren't. Not at all.

I come from a state where winters were long and ice skating was nowhere near $200 a month. The school offered flute amd clarinet lessons for very little too.
I got the same as you but without the price tag. I suspect your private school was also not as good as the public I attended

But I do not have the superiority complex

I doubt very much you got the same as me because the sort of skating instruction I got did not depend on the weather. Outdoor skating, meh. Bad for the blades. (They are expensive, you know. ) We trained indoors.

Also, if you think the sort of music instruction you get in public school is remotely comparable to actual specialized, rigorous music schools, then it tells me you are simply not familiar with that system. You honestly aren't. It has nothing in common with clarinet lessons at a public school.

I did go to a public school, though. Not sure why you made up the story of a private school. You like making stuff up to bolster your argument - I noticed that when you try to slip in things like "pushy parents" and "only moderately like", without any basis.

Of course you don't have a superiority complex. Why would you?

Again you are taking to several posters. Winter skating and school music lesson poster is a different person from minimalist sub $100k hhi poster. Not sure how you can miss that with all your superior education as 1) it's obvious and 2) this is DCUM and that's how it works.

[Anonymous]

I'm coming in way too late to this conversation to add anything new.

For us, it's like a PP said. The trappings of a middle class upbringing ... they just add up. Enrichment classes, dental work, cute outfits, family portraits, family vacations, childcare (the biggest $$), all the "stuff" we do to create the "whole child" experience that feels so important.

DCUM is a place of wealth, humble-bragging, and not at all the "norm" in the real world. But the DC metro area is unlike almost anywhere else, so DCUM gives you a sesnse of what HERE is like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your kids can't appreciate what they don't have. My parents put me through 8 years of classical music education plus figure skating lessons with language tutors, and I am very grateful I had that experience instead of free soccer games at wherever happened to be free.

How does figure skating lessons with language tutors work? Do they call out moves in Russian?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand how your question follows from the post above, but I was the one who mentioned our net worth and if you followed the thread -- or even just that post -- it was very clear. I mentioned it in response to a poster who said that our approach to child rearing was "making virtue out of necessity". I mentioned our net worth to prove that if we wanted to pay $50k a year for private school or $10k per summer for summer camps or $200 a month for violin/lacrosse/ice skating lessons we could -- if that was what was important to us!

I am the poster who was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of music and figure skating training. From the viewpoint of a child, I am grateful my parents did not think like you. I cherish my years at the piano and on the ice. I love the feeling of freedom and expression you get out of mastering this. You aren't providing this for your children. That's fine. The thing is this: you aren't better than anyone who is. You aren't superior. Certainly not to my parents. Camping and climbing trees mean nothing to me. You are pretending that you are a better parent because you avoid activities that cost money. And you aren't. Not at all.

I come from a state where winters were long and ice skating was nowhere near $200 a month. The school offered flute amd clarinet lessons for very little too.
I got the same as you but without the price tag. I suspect your private school was also not as good as the public I attended

But I do not have the superiority complex

I doubt very much you got the same as me because the sort of skating instruction I got did not depend on the weather. Outdoor skating, meh. Bad for the blades. (They are expensive, you know. ) We trained indoors.

Also, if you think the sort of music instruction you get in public school is remotely comparable to actual specialized, rigorous music schools, then it tells me you are simply not familiar with that system. You honestly aren't. It has nothing in common with clarinet lessons at a public school.

I did go to a public school, though. Not sure why you made up the story of a private school. You like making stuff up to bolster your argument - I noticed that when you try to slip in things like "pushy parents" and "only moderately like", without any basis.

Of course you don't have a superiority complex. Why would you?

Again you are taking to several posters. Winter skating and school music lesson poster is a different person from minimalist sub $100k hhi poster. Not sure how you can miss that with all your superior education as 1) it's obvious and 2) this is DCUM and that's how it works.

This changes absolutely nothing except maybe the third sentence from the end. The poster is still trying to compare the incomparable, and still made up the private school thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm coming in way too late to this conversation to add anything new.

For us, it's like a PP said. The trappings of a middle class upbringing ... they just add up. Enrichment classes, dental work, cute outfits, family portraits, family vacations, childcare (the biggest $$), all the "stuff" we do to create the "whole child" experience that feels so important.

DCUM is a place of wealth, humble-bragging, and not at all the "norm" in the real world. But the DC metro area is unlike almost anywhere else, so DCUM gives you a sesnse of what HERE is like.

Good childcare costs. It has nothing to do with DCUM. What's not the norm is the parent doing full-time childcare, working at night and going off at other parents who are paying someone else to do it for "living in a rich bubble".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm coming in way too late to this conversation to add anything new.

For us, it's like a PP said. The trappings of a middle class upbringing ... they just add up. Enrichment classes, dental work, cute outfits, family portraits, family vacations, childcare (the biggest $$), all the "stuff" we do to create the "whole child" experience that feels so important.

DCUM is a place of wealth, humble-bragging, and not at all the "norm" in the real world. But the DC metro area is unlike almost anywhere else, so DCUM gives you a sesnse of what HERE is like.

Honestly, I have tons of friends who live in small towns and/or rural parts of the country and they have to pay for all this stuff, too. Some things might cost more or be more intensive here (travel sports, etc.) but even my friends from my small hometown buy cleats and pay for a week of soccer camp and buy $50 of raffle tickets to pay for the spring sports banquet, even when their kid is on the JV high school team. All that stuff you do (as PP said, the trappings of a middle class upbringing), add up. However, the biggest things around here are housing and child care costs, which are much higher than many other places, esp. if you live in one of the better school districts.

[Anonymous]

The previous generations had SAHMs and kids just played out on the streets. That's why it was cheap.

In our generation the women are working, the childcare is through the roof and the kids are bored. They can't just play outside with their peers, we have to arrange group activities for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm coming in way too late to this conversation to add anything new.

For us, it's like a PP said. The trappings of a middle class upbringing ... they just add up. Enrichment classes, dental work, cute outfits, family portraits, family vacations, childcare (the biggest $$), all the "stuff" we do to create the "whole child" experience that feels so important.

DCUM is a place of wealth, humble-bragging, and not at all the "norm" in the real world. But the DC metro area is unlike almost anywhere else, so DCUM gives you a sesnse of what HERE is like.

Honestly, I have tons of friends who live in small towns and/or rural parts of the country and they have to pay for all this stuff, too. Some things might cost more or be more intensive here (travel sports, etc.) but even my friends from my small hometown buy cleats and pay for a week of soccer camp and buy $50 of raffle tickets to pay for the spring sports banquet, even when their kid is on the JV high school team. All that stuff you do (as PP said, the trappings of a middle class upbringing), add up. However, the biggest things around here are housing and child care costs, which are much higher than many other places, esp. if you live in one of the better school districts.

Family portraits? You are listing things that are actually *MORE* common outside of DCUM terroritory.

All middle class families pay for braces, and vacations, and why do you think soccer mom is a cliche -- it is widespread.

But in DC, these basic expenses *seem* excessive b/c all the money is drained away into housing costs to live somewhere with decent schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand how your question follows from the post above, but I was the one who mentioned our net worth and if you followed the thread -- or even just that post -- it was very clear. I mentioned it in response to a poster who said that our approach to child rearing was "making virtue out of necessity". I mentioned our net worth to prove that if we wanted to pay $50k a year for private school or $10k per summer for summer camps or $200 a month for violin/lacrosse/ice skating lessons we could -- if that was what was important to us!

I am the poster who was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of music and figure skating training. From the viewpoint of a child, I am grateful my parents did not think like you. I cherish my years at the piano and on the ice. I love the feeling of freedom and expression you get out of mastering this. You aren't providing this for your children. That's fine. The thing is this: you aren't better than anyone who is. You aren't superior. Certainly not to my parents. Camping and climbing trees mean nothing to me. You are pretending that you are a better parent because you avoid activities that cost money. And you aren't. Not at all.

I agree. It is so weird that music lessons are a target of criticism. My parent never had two extra nickels to rub together yet scrimped to pay for piano lessons for me and my siblings. Music is as fundamental as air to me.

[Anonymous]

A good way to look at it is in what I call doubles. Every time you go out to eat your kids need to eat double the bill. The utility bills in your house, the kid will use the same utilities you do double your bills. Vacation or taking a trip anywhere double the price of your tickets especially if you fly and your child is over 2 years old they are charged as adults. Activities, sports, day care, health care, entertainment, prom, college, books etc. If you still dont see it look at it this way, cut your salary in half and dont have a kid, that's how your finances would look if you did have one.

[Anonymous]

NP here. We are a fairly frugal family but kids DO cost a lot of money, regardless. In order to figure out the real costs, think about what you would spend without kids even for basic costs - a smaller home, less healthcare, less food, less clothing, no childcare or no need for a flexible job, less travel costs, no saving for college, no activities (even cheap ones) versus what it is with kids.

Having a first child means:

-an extra bedroom (3 bedroom home versus 2 or 2 bedroom apt. versus 1). Cost difference - $300-$500 per month
-extra healthcare for "family plan" ~$200 per month
-food at a minimum of $100 per month
-clothing even at thrift stores - $20 per month
-childcare - cheapest ~$800-$1000 per month for ~6 years and $300 in aftercare for ~6 years, so say average $300 per year for 18 years
-travel - requires larger hotel room, more tickets for activities, possible extra airfare costs. For a one-week vacation per year, I'd say a minimum of $400 extra ($30-$50 per month)
-activities - even doing basic ones like scouts ($200 per year), group music lessons ($300 per year), parks and rec. gymnastics($300 per year), and recreational soccer ($300 per year), assume $100 per month per kid.

So we're talking $1800-$2000 per month, and that's fairly basic costs.

Sure you might get lucky in one area - like you never fly for vacations or you have a grandma who watches your kid for free or you work for a great company that provides free healthcare for all, but those are fairly basic costs. You can adjust for your own situation. These costs do NOT include braces, travel teams, birthday parties, gifts for kids at Christmas or birthdays, saving for college, expensive activities, extra co-pays, any special needs that might arise, etc.

As to the $95K poster from DC. I think you are overlooking a lot of things. You said you didn't move when you had kids, but that means you must have bought (or rented) a big enough place in anticipation of having kids. If you had planned on only being the two of you the rest of your lives, you would not need the same space as 4 of you. If you adjusted your lifestyle because of the two kids, then you gave up something (and that opportunity cost - home office, guest room, whatever is a cost of having a kid that you overlooked).

Same is true for your flexible job. Taking a flexible job so you can work around childcare is a cost. Having your husband not get his higher income job for a few more years is an opportunity cost. Not saying it's wrong, but it IS a cost of having kids.

Switching from a higher-level healthcare plan to an HMO is a cost. Even if you like it better.

Conveniently not figuring out the cost of feeding your kids, the extra calories you need to breastfeed, the cost of cloth diapers (I did that, too), the cost of thrift store clothes (I do that too), parks and rec. classes (I do that too) does not help your cause. Sit down and write up EVERYTHING your kids cost you including the opportunity costs, and you will find that they are costing you more than you are presenting here. And, no most people do not have jobs they can work around to cover full-time childcare.

OP, one financial positive that I don't think I saw mentioned is the tax breaks that children provide (there is the extra exemptions and a childcare credit that you can take, which would lower the minimum costs I outlined above). I also agree with a PP that you should not count on grandparents for childcare, even if they say they will do so. Staying home with a baby all day is hard work and is often too much for grandparents.

[Anonymous]

PP here. Don't forget the cost of actually HAVING a kid. Insurance often doesn't cover everything. Also, there are maternity clothes, extra vitamins, extra food, gas/parking costs to visit the doctor on a regular basis. I'm sure *someone* will claim they gained no weight and therefore didn't need larger-sized clothes, they got their extra vitamins from their herbal garden that they planted in their yard and gave birth at home while simultaneously working on a project so they didn't even take vacation time. But for most mere mortals, pregnancy has its costs, too. And that's assuming it's a smooth pregnancy, and you can get pregnant easily. Add in some high-risk factors or some infertility and your costs can become astronomical.

[Anonymous]

Good outline Pp!