Are We Crazy for Questioning a $250k US Degree and looking abroad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.


Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

I'm always fascinated by the confidence with which some people psychoanalyze the complex financial and educational decisions of hundreds of families they've never met.

The central premise that this is a 'backup plan' for students who can't get into top US schools is a tired, easily disproven myth. As I and many others here have shared, DD turned down two Ivies to study in the UK. Her story isn’t unique. This is not about rejection; it's about a different set of priorities with a desire for real-world global experience, not just one stamped with a familiar US ranking.

Frankly, the idea that all the world's 'top students' only clamor for US schools is an incredibly US-centric view of the world. Brilliant students everywhere have different goals and different definitions of 'the best.'

Ultimately, praising one path isn't an attack on another, and it certainly isn't a license to tear down the choices of others.

Anyway, for those of us who are actually interested in the productive conversation the OP started, let’s ignore these trolls.

Just because you say it anonymously doesn’t make it true. Very very few American families are turning down Ivy League schools to study in Europe. If your kids are, you are a real exception to the rule.

And that you are seriously asserting that the USA isn’t far and away the preferred destination for foreign students means that you have no credibility.

You clearly do not possess the ability to engage with what is actually written.

To be clear for everyone else following along:

1) My point was never that the US isn't a popular destination. My point was that the world's 'brilliant students' have many goals, and to assume they all prefer the US is a US-centric view. These are two very different statements.

2) You are arguing against a point nobody made, which is the definition of a strawman argument.

This is no longer a productive discussion. I won't be engaging with you further. I'm going back to the actual topic

It’s not only a “popular” destination. It’s THE MOST POPULAR and by a long shot. We import way more students than we export and with good reason. That you refuse to concede that is very telling.

Show me the data. And put any conclusions in context of the size and population of the relevant countries. Because what you are saying sounds like typical American insular assumptions that they are the best. I’m from Europe and we absolutely hands down do not ever, under any circumstances believe that the US is superior to so other world renowned institutions.

The U.S. attracts the most international students of all nations, hosting an all-time high of more than 1.1 million international students during the 2023-2024 academic year, an all-time high since COVID. Key factors for this interest include the country's reputation for renowned high-education programs, with about half ot he world's top universities located there, along with advanced technology and strong research capabilities.

India, China, and South Korea are among the top countries from which students come to study in the U.S. This is all googleable

I’m sure the US subtract many brilliant foreign students, but the overall numbers are not particularly impressive. Last year the US had 1.1 million international students, Canada had 1 million, Australia had 780,000, and the UK has 732,000. The US had a population 5 times larger than the UK, 8 times Canada’s and 12 times Australia’s. It’s hardly a resounding endorsement of US college education.

Sorry, but you lost the argument. The Chinese, Korean and Indian students will kill to study here. The numbers don’t lie. America is no 1 for sheer numbers. As to your point about demographics- that is nonsense because the public and private institutions in America control the number of foreign students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.


Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

I'm always fascinated by the confidence with which some people psychoanalyze the complex financial and educational decisions of hundreds of families they've never met.

The central premise that this is a 'backup plan' for students who can't get into top US schools is a tired, easily disproven myth. As I and many others here have shared, DD turned down two Ivies to study in the UK. Her story isn’t unique. This is not about rejection; it's about a different set of priorities with a desire for real-world global experience, not just one stamped with a familiar US ranking.

Frankly, the idea that all the world's 'top students' only clamor for US schools is an incredibly US-centric view of the world. Brilliant students everywhere have different goals and different definitions of 'the best.'

Ultimately, praising one path isn't an attack on another, and it certainly isn't a license to tear down the choices of others.

Anyway, for those of us who are actually interested in the productive conversation the OP started, let’s ignore these trolls.

Just because you say it anonymously doesn’t make it true. Very very few American families are turning down Ivy League schools to study in Europe. If your kids are, you are a real exception to the rule.

And that you are seriously asserting that the USA isn’t far and away the preferred destination for foreign students means that you have no credibility.

You clearly do not possess the ability to engage with what is actually written.

To be clear for everyone else following along:

1) My point was never that the US isn't a popular destination. My point was that the world's 'brilliant students' have many goals, and to assume they all prefer the US is a US-centric view. These are two very different statements.

2) You are arguing against a point nobody made, which is the definition of a strawman argument.

This is no longer a productive discussion. I won't be engaging with you further. I'm going back to the actual topic

It’s not only a “popular” destination. It’s THE MOST POPULAR and by a long shot. We import way more students than we export and with good reason. That you refuse to concede that is very telling.

Show me the data. And put any conclusions in context of the size and population of the relevant countries. Because what you are saying sounds like typical American insular assumptions that they are the best. I’m from Europe and we absolutely hands down do not ever, under any circumstances believe that the US is superior to so other world renowned institutions.

The U.S. attracts the most international students of all nations, hosting an all-time high of more than 1.1 million international students during the 2023-2024 academic year, an all-time high since COVID. Key factors for this interest include the country's reputation for renowned high-education programs, with about half ot he world's top universities located there, along with advanced technology and strong research capabilities.

India, China, and South Korea are among the top countries from which students come to study in the U.S. This is all googleable

I’m sure the US subtract many brilliant foreign students, but the overall numbers are not particularly impressive. Last year the US had 1.1 million international students, Canada had 1 million, Australia had 780,000, and the UK has 732,000. The US had a population 5 times larger than the UK, 8 times Canada’s and 12 times Australia’s. It’s hardly a resounding endorsement of US college education.

What does the US population have to do with the number of non-US people studying here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a degree from a solid British university that you’ve never heard of. I’ve had no problems getting jobs in the US. And as a hiring manager I care much more about experience and presentation of a candidate than what college an applicant attended. The don’t even remember the colleges any of the people I’ve hired attended.

Agree. As a hiring manager, I did not care about the school a candidate attended. If I had wanted to know more, I could have searched the internet. However, I never did that.

Another mom “hiring manager” here in the Bay Area for a well known tech firm. I apologize, but yes, we do care. we dont rank schools, but we do select where we are going to recruit from. It is a select group of about 20-25 schools in the US. WE do the same thing in Canada, UK and the EU. You might not like it, but this is how the world works in the upper echelons of corporate world. We have hired kids from the t15 UK schools mentioned in the other DCUM thread ahead of kids at t25-t50 in the US.

And yes, we know who ETH, TUM, Delft, KU Leuven, KTM is and all of the top UK unis discussed here. We have hired from all of them. And the vast majority of times, these are American kids coming back home.

Sure, while regional employers and others dont care, there is still a big segment of the market that does.

So after someone has a couple of years experience you care where they went to college and it’s a more important factor than their job experience? Because I don’t believe that for one second.

If you do this, you have an agenda. There are 2.9 million university students in the UK (and that would include graduate students), while there are almost 20 million in the US. The qualifications to get into a school ranked #26 in the US would be far better than those needed to get into #12 in the UK. Don't even get us started comparing to Canadian schools. I'm not sure that your agenda is, but you and your company definitely have one.

[Anonymous]

why are people who are def NOT spending 250k commenting on this thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Takedown of the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

PISA rankings. Those are the international rankings of country education systems. 2022 is the most recent year that exists as they do this on a 3 year testing cycle.

https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/pisa-scores-by-country

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.


Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

I'm always fascinated by the confidence with which some people psychoanalyze the complex financial and educational decisions of hundreds of families they've never met.

The central premise that this is a 'backup plan' for students who can't get into top US schools is a tired, easily disproven myth. As I and many others here have shared, DD turned down two Ivies to study in the UK. Her story isn’t unique. This is not about rejection; it's about a different set of priorities with a desire for real-world global experience, not just one stamped with a familiar US ranking.

Frankly, the idea that all the world's 'top students' only clamor for US schools is an incredibly US-centric view of the world. Brilliant students everywhere have different goals and different definitions of 'the best.'

Ultimately, praising one path isn't an attack on another, and it certainly isn't a license to tear down the choices of others.

Anyway, for those of us who are actually interested in the productive conversation the OP started, let’s ignore these trolls.

Just because you say it anonymously doesn’t make it true. Very very few American families are turning down Ivy League schools to study in Europe. If your kids are, you are a real exception to the rule.

And that you are seriously asserting that the USA isn’t far and away the preferred destination for foreign students means that you have no credibility.

You clearly do not possess the ability to engage with what is actually written.

To be clear for everyone else following along:

1) My point was never that the US isn't a popular destination. My point was that the world's 'brilliant students' have many goals, and to assume they all prefer the US is a US-centric view. These are two very different statements.

2) You are arguing against a point nobody made, which is the definition of a strawman argument.

This is no longer a productive discussion. I won't be engaging with you further. I'm going back to the actual topic

It’s not only a “popular” destination. It’s THE MOST POPULAR and by a long shot. We import way more students than we export and with good reason. That you refuse to concede that is very telling.

Show me the data. And put any conclusions in context of the size and population of the relevant countries. Because what you are saying sounds like typical American insular assumptions that they are the best. I’m from Europe and we absolutely hands down do not ever, under any circumstances believe that the US is superior to so other world renowned institutions.

The U.S. attracts the most international students of all nations, hosting an all-time high of more than 1.1 million international students during the 2023-2024 academic year, an all-time high since COVID. Key factors for this interest include the country's reputation for renowned high-education programs, with about half ot he world's top universities located there, along with advanced technology and strong research capabilities.

India, China, and South Korea are among the top countries from which students come to study in the U.S. This is all googleable

I’m sure the US subtract many brilliant foreign students, but the overall numbers are not particularly impressive. Last year the US had 1.1 million international students, Canada had 1 million, Australia had 780,000, and the UK has 732,000. The US had a population 5 times larger than the UK, 8 times Canada’s and 12 times Australia’s. It’s hardly a resounding endorsement of US college education.

What does the US population have to do with the number of non-US people studying here?

Well Australia has 42 universities and managers to attract 780,000 international students. How many universities does the US have that it only manages to attract 1 million?

To be honest, it’s a dumb argument anyway and I was just responding to the silly claim about 1 million students meaning anything much given a huge proportion of international students really see overseas study as an opportunity for backdoor immigration. You know that 40% of international students stay after they finish studying, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

PISA rankings. Those are the international rankings of country education systems. 2022 is the most recent year that exists as they do this on a 3 year testing cycle.

https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/pisa-scores-by-country

dp.. both Switzerland and the UK are above the US on that list.

But, I wouldn't put that much stock in that list. South Korea while #5, most of us wouldn't want SK's educational system here. But, I do think the UK k-12 system is, on average, a bit more rigorous than the US system. They don't molly coddle as much.

-Korean American married to a Brit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

PISA rankings. Those are the international rankings of country education systems. 2022 is the most recent year that exists as they do this on a 3 year testing cycle.

https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/pisa-scores-by-country

dp.. both Switzerland and the UK are above the US on that list.

But, I wouldn't put that much stock in that list. South Korea while #5, most of us wouldn't want SK's educational system here. But, I do think the UK k-12 system is, on average, a bit more rigorous than the US system. They don't molly coddle as much.

-Korean American married to a Brit

Yeah, I know that. I'm not saying the US is the greatest...just that we aren't anywhere close to dead last and we rank ahead of many 1st world countries yet nobody ever says Norway's education system is a disaster (though who knows...maybe they do).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Protesteth too much.