Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Were Jews the first and only people to occupy the Levant? Or were they the longest to reside there? So for 2000 jews have been planning their return. 2000 years. Generation after generation after generation had this same unified goal?

1) No, obviously not
2) Don't really know but I assume also no
3) Yes, basically, for generation after generation, Jews have been planning/dreaming of a return. See: many prayers in the liturgy of every strain of Judaism (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi), which mourn the loss of Zion and plead with God to return the Jews to Zion

I personally don't think that necessarily ought to mean anything when it comes to geopolitics in 2025, but I do think it's a little silly to try to claim Jews have no longstanding attachment to Israel and just made it up in the 1940s so we could steal a country. Which is only a slight exaggeration of claims I see on here all the time.

It would be the same if native Americans revolted and decided to take back their nation. They would be permitted to simply kick us out of our established homes. Would average Americans accept this? Would the native Americans be well accepted?

There were also a lot of Jews living in modern-day Israel all along, and others who bought land before the state was established. It wasn’t ALL “kick people out of homes.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Mizrahis are the original jews from Israel correct?

No, Mizrahi Jews are from all over the Middle East. All of these distinctions emerged well after Jews were expelled by the Romans. At that time, they were just Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

LMFAO ok. This is pretty indicative of the level of discourse on the Palestinian side. Well-meaning westerners think it’s a noble struggle for indigenous rights when in reality it’s just blood and soil nationalism.

People who advocate for this kind of thing clearly do not want a pluralistic, multi-ethnic democracy like the United States or Israel. They want YET ANOTHER corrupt, despotic Arab ethnostate, built on apartheid and oppression of minorities. In other words, everything Israel’s enemies falsely accuse Israel of being.

Having a fair pluralistic multiethnic democracy without any US support in the ME seems to be a near impossible feat. If Israel/Palestine want to continue along this tumultuous course, fine, but Americans have domestic issues we should be concerning ourselves with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

How would a DNA test prove who has ties to the land? DNA isn’t geo-coded. At some point you’re just extrapolating from someone’s genetic makeup based on what we know of the history of the people they’re descended from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

Why would anyone other than a Muslim want to live in a Muslim majority nation? Would a white Christian be welcomed in a Muslim nation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

Supposedly Judaism is an ethnoreligion but if anyone can convert it’s not really. Converts to Judaism aren’t ethnically Jewish, they’re just educated and acting like ethnic Jews. If I convert to Judaism I wouldn’t actually be a Jew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

I can’t take you serious when you don’t even seem to understand the salient point that Israel was NOT established by the U.N. Rather, it preemptively declared ITSELF a state prior to any U.N. (Or foreign gov’t) recognition.

Preemptive declaration of statehood, preemptive self-defense. What’s with Israel and this preemptive nonsense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

Supposedly Judaism is an ethnoreligion but if anyone can convert it’s not really. Converts to Judaism aren’t ethnically Jewish, they’re just educated and acting like ethnic Jews. If I convert to Judaism I wouldn’t actually be a Jew.

Actually, it's much harder for converts from outside Israel to claim Israeli citizenship as Jews than it is for people born Jewish. That's mostly because Orthodox rabbis won't accept conversions by non-Orthodox rabbis, but the effect is that not "anyone" can convert and then become Israeli.

I think this is probably an extreme edge case — how many people want to convert to Judaism just to move to Israel? Not to be blunt about it, but... why would you want to move to Israel right now, especially if you're not already Jewish? I was born Jewish and I have no interest in moving there.

But on the underlying point, there are thousands of years of Jewish debate and thought about converts, so I think I'll just go with the general rule (converts to Judaism are Jewish, period) even if it means someone on DCUM thinks otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Please explain why I am not in the same position as an Irish American who has ethnic roots from Ireland that are continuous for more than 2000 years as well. Should American Irish go kick out the English and claim the land as my ethnic right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Please explain why I am not in the same position as an Irish American who has ethnic roots from Ireland that are continuous for more than 2000 years as well. Should American Irish go kick out the English and claim the land as my ethnic right?

Huh? If you’re an Irish American with Irish roots going back 2000 years then you’ll likely get some kind of immigration preference if you try to immigrate to Ireland, yes. I’m not understanding your point or how this is relevant to Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

Supposedly Judaism is an ethnoreligion but if anyone can convert it’s not really. Converts to Judaism aren’t ethnically Jewish, they’re just educated and acting like ethnic Jews. If I convert to Judaism I wouldn’t actually be a Jew.

Actually, it's much harder for converts from outside Israel to claim Israeli citizenship as Jews than it is for people born Jewish. That's mostly because Orthodox rabbis won't accept conversions by non-Orthodox rabbis, but the effect is that not "anyone" can convert and then become Israeli.

I think this is probably an extreme edge case — how many people want to convert to Judaism just to move to Israel? Not to be blunt about it, but... why would you want to move to Israel right now, especially if you're not already Jewish? I was born Jewish and I have no interest in moving there.

But on the underlying point, there are thousands of years of Jewish debate and thought about converts, so I think I'll just go with the general rule (converts to Judaism are Jewish, period) even if it means someone on DCUM thinks otherwise.

So the premise and origins of Israel really only apply to a very distinct select group of individuals. If the argument is over who the land belongs to it belongs to any semitic person of any religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

I think you are misunderstanding yourself and not following your own argument to its end.

You realize that your argument is nonsensical to the average person? So pretty much anyone claiming to be jewish, like I could convert to Judaism and get to claim Israel as my homeland? Is that accurate? People with recent ancestral ties to Russia and Eastern Europe are allowed to claim the ME as their homeland? I don’t disagree that Israel should exist but your reasoning is nonsensical.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and like all sovereign nations, is free to give preference (or not) to certain individuals and groups in matters of immigration and citizenship. All countries do this. People with Irish/German ancestry have an easier time getting Irish/German citizenship. People with a certain amount of money/vocational skills are given immigration preference in the US and other countries. Israel was specifically founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution so yes, that is something they consider wrt immigration. That doesn’t mean that non-Jews cannot become citizens (21% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish). Conversely, Jews are LEGALLY BARRED from becoming citizens in many Muslim-majority countries, like Saudi Arabia. People don’t seem to have a problem with that though.

Supposedly Judaism is an ethnoreligion but if anyone can convert it’s not really. Converts to Judaism aren’t ethnically Jewish, they’re just educated and acting like ethnic Jews. If I convert to Judaism I wouldn’t actually be a Jew.

Actually, it's much harder for converts from outside Israel to claim Israeli citizenship as Jews than it is for people born Jewish. That's mostly because Orthodox rabbis won't accept conversions by non-Orthodox rabbis, but the effect is that not "anyone" can convert and then become Israeli.

I think this is probably an extreme edge case — how many people want to convert to Judaism just to move to Israel? Not to be blunt about it, but... why would you want to move to Israel right now, especially if you're not already Jewish? I was born Jewish and I have no interest in moving there.

But on the underlying point, there are thousands of years of Jewish debate and thought about converts, so I think I'll just go with the general rule (converts to Judaism are Jewish, period) even if it means someone on DCUM thinks otherwise.

So the premise and origins of Israel really only apply to a very distinct select group of individuals. If the argument is over who the land belongs to it belongs to any semitic person of any religion.

In modern times these are conflicting ideas. There’s been too much time and dilution.