European Expansion: Eye-Opening, Frustrating, and Possibly Not Worth It - Underperforming employee culture

[Anonymous]

On a recent flight to Paris I sat next to an executive from a French multinational. He said all the white collar workers in his company want to be relocated to the USA. Why? Better pay and better lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

If you tell a MC person in western Europe that they have to work longer hours for less benefits, they'd revolt. Americans work longer hours, and accept that we get less benefits, pay more for medical care and college. Not sure who is happier here.

How would it be less benefits? It would be significantly more pay.

It’s a nanny state so of course they are going to get upset if daddy takes something away. Even if they’d be better off financially with more money. The average European isn’t that bright or intellectually curious.

If that pay goes directly towards healthcare costs, then what’s the point? And I wouldn’t want more pay if it means less vacation time.

NP- it doesn't. A lot of the people who have significant bills chose bare bones plans on the health insurance marketplace. If they'd chosen normal plans (which cost more, but not a huge amount more), they wouldn't have the bills they have now. Frankly I don't think those types of cheap insurance should even be allowed to be sold. We definitely need for someone to come in and fix insurance in the US. There's something very broken.

Also, most of the highly paid jobs do have nice vacation time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

I am 100% sure you have no European relatives.

Signed,

An actual European

[Anonymous]

I find everything in the U.S. to be slipshod, and much of what you ask for needs to be done over three times to get it right.

Oh, there's an "app" or a website to order the work, but the quality of the actual work is often minimal, cutting corners and having problems that you don't see right off the bat.

If it's a store bought item, it's probably OK from a quality perspective, but a building contractor, HVAC, plumbing, carpentry, window installation, insulation, etc., is usually pretty poor and the materials used do not last.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So you are complaining because it is harder to control your employees every waking moment and they are allowed to have a life outside of work?

Cry me a river.

And on the timing paternity leave to coincide with mandatory PTO, how is that any different than what lot of woman in the US do? Take full maternity leave, burn through PTO and then quit. Happens all day every day.

Most companies I work at has zero maternity leave. They do it on short term disability which is paid by a third party and use up vacation days you have to pay out anyway and some sick days. STD kicks in after two weeks so you can use 10 days sick days, six weeks STD then use vacation day then back to work. Paternity is just free days the person did not earn

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

My parents didn’t buy me a car, pay for a wedding or leave an inheritance, but I was at their deathbed and live a comfortable life (probably not successful to someone with a beach house).

My IL kill themselves to provide for their adult children, and we wish they had both taken it easy. If your kids love you, they will want you to have a comfortable life too — my kid was pushing us to retire early and not worry, they will go to community college then transfer to a good school (they have a 1600 SAT so I guess this is feasible? I don’t want that!). But in Europe college is super cheap anyways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

I am 100% sure you have no European relatives.

Signed,

An actual European

Well PP is clearly British, I’m guessing from the part that voted for Brexit. So not European in many ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On a recent flight to Paris I sat next to an executive from a French multinational. He said all the white collar workers in his company want to be relocated to the USA. Why? Better pay and better lifestyle.

I assume they have not actually lived in the US for a length of time. Otherwise, they would be shocked that there is no mandated maternity leave, managers will frown if you want to take more than 2 weeks off, healthcare and college costs are insane, and you have to deal with lockdown drills at your kid's school, and every time you hear about a school shooting, you quickly go on your phone to check if it's your kid's school.

yea, qol here is so much better for the average worker. /s

[Anonymous]

Also the tax structure in Europe is terrible and holds people back. My European company gave us a lot of stock options as pre-IPO. In US I converted options as soon as I got them to RSUs by paying the strike price. Held them greater than one year, then sold them at LTG rate.

In Europe they when sold had to pay taxes at ordinary income tax rate up to 50 percent So even though we got same amount of options mine was worth much more.

Due to this tax structure options and RSUs not as popular in England while in US it makes millionaires out of plain old IT people.

[Anonymous]

But in Europe, you probably are not taking on a 30 or 40 year mortgage. They're going to renegotiate it every 10 years, but the mindset is to pay it off quickly or not buy a house to begin with.

So many in the U.S. are house poor with nearly half their pay going to housing and they can't just get out of it on a whim. The whole mindset in Europe is different. Most don't dream big to begin with. They work to live.

Our economy has been financialized. Look at how much Visa takes from a vendor on every purchase. The stores pass that on to you. You pay a lot in the USA for financing and insurance and you get very little from those rackets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You all are talking about less benefits in the US, but it's not true when you're comparing white collar work. Plenty of companies in the US have maternity leave, 4-6 weeks of vacation, and good health insurance. I don't have platinum insurance at all, but I've never had medical bills. My last two childbirths were free (zero copay even). My cousin gave birth in a hospital in France with no air conditioning in late summer, no epidural (it's not clear to me why. This could have been her decision?) and shared a room afterwards. They kept telling her if she had a csection her husband wouldn't be allowed in, which panicked her.

And for those of you who want great benefits and want less pay in the US, there are jobs like those still available. Many school districts still have good health insurance, summers off, and less pay. Fed jobs and state jobs also used to have good insurance and leave in exchange for less pay. Or you could just take your higher pay in the US and purchase better insurance.

This is very true. How the media covers benefits is very misleading. The coverage suggests not a single person has maternity leave or vacation since it isn’t mandated by the federal government. Your average European can’t understand the nuance since all their benefits are provided by the government. My husband receives 4 weeks of vacation and summer Fridays and I receive 5 weeks of vacation, and European friends act like we are lying since they have been told over and over Americans don’t receive vacation.

The entire argument is disingenuous since for most white collar workers, you receive very little vacation starting out in your career and in mid to late-career 3-5 weeks. If you’re an hourly employee you don’t receive vacation but you can also job hop and have the earned income tax credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But in Europe, you probably are not taking on a 30 or 40 year mortgage. They're going to renegotiate it every 10 years, but the mindset is to pay it off quickly or not buy a house to begin with.

So many in the U.S. are house poor with nearly half their pay going to housing and they can't just get out of it on a whim. The whole mindset in Europe is different. Most don't dream big to begin with. They work to live.

Our economy has been financialized. Look at how much Visa takes from a vendor on every purchase. The stores pass that on to you. You pay a lot in the USA for financing and insurance and you get very little from those rackets.

Do you actually believe what you write?

Americans have less mortgage debt than most Western Europeans. Significantly less than those in Scandinavia. Europeans are refinancing only because they most don’t have access to a 30 year fixed rate mortgage.

Again, Americans have less personal debt and less mortgage debt than Germans, the French, British etc. You may not feel this is the case, but it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

I am 100% sure you have no European relatives.

Signed,

An actual European

+1 Another actual European. By the style of writing and capitalization, my money is on a conservative Indian person with parents from a lower caste, who experienced a lot of discrimination and found opportunity here. Which brings me to my next point. For an immigrant POC, US is much better. Europe is still very racist and the upward social mobility for a POC is non-existent. Look at the top Euro companies by market cap and see how many minorities are in the boards and leadership. France is so bad that they'd rather "import" MDs from Eastern European countries, because they are white, rather than train POC, because nobody wants to visit them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a recent flight to Paris I sat next to an executive from a French multinational. He said all the white collar workers in his company want to be relocated to the USA. Why? Better pay and better lifestyle.

I assume they have not actually lived in the US for a length of time. Otherwise, they would be shocked that there is no mandated maternity leave, managers will frown if you want to take more than 2 weeks off, healthcare and college costs are insane, and you have to deal with lockdown drills at your kid's school, and every time you hear about a school shooting, you quickly go on your phone to check if it's your kid's school.

yea, qol here is so much better for the average worker. /s

Except this isn’t true for white collar workers more than a few years out of college. This is you protecting your own hatred of America. So you want to make everyone think that we are all running around without health insurance and only 2 weeks of vacation.

Sadly the lockdown drills are true, but with the recent shooting in Austria they likely will have them eventually as well.