Equitable access to advanced math

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those asking for advanced math opportunities, FCPS already offers AAP math, and further with principal approval, 6th graders can enroll in Algebra 1 or go for summer geometry as rising 8th grader. Are you saying even more advanced math options should be provided?

It's a lot more complicated than that. Very few people meet the FCPS benchmarks to enroll in Algebra I in 6th grade, regardless of the principal's approval.

What are they? Can you someone please describe the process how it works or worked?

It has already been listed in this thread and on numerous other threads in this forum. But I'll do it again.

To take Algebra I in 6th grade, the kid must:
Score 145 or higher on the CogAT Quant section
Score a 575 or higher on their 4th grade SOL
have the support of their 4th grade AAP/advanced math teacher.

Then, if they meet all of these at the end of 4th grade, Gatehouse will conduct additional testing. Kids who meet those benchmarks will be jumped up to 6th grade AAP math when in 5th grade.

In 5th grade, they need a 91st percentile or higher score on the IAAT as well as a pass advanced on the 7th grade Math SOL to be eligible for Algebra in 6th grade.

This is the process we had to go through, and it's ridiculous the number of barriers that are enforced for basic elementary math learning.

My dad is a professor in STEM discipline. He didn't take any calculus until undergrad and routinely laughs at my wanting Algebra 1 in 7th grade and Calc BC in 11th (the track I took) to be an option for my kids.

Anyone who says Algebra 1 in 5th is "basic elementary math learning" is a troll or so seriously divorced from reality that a meaningful conversation is not possible. Do you people even remember high school math...at all? Do you remember how much it takes to learn Algebra 2 for even decently bright, hard working kids?

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

+1

This is such a strange thread. Just ... strange.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Fairfax probably should have twice as many kids in 6th grade algebra.

Why? What's the point?

If the advanced students stick to 7th grade algebra, then they are all advanced together. No one has to be "more advanced" than the advanced kids for college apps.

By that logic they should all stick to 8th grade algebra.

Loudoun has its 6th graders doing well in algebra, and they could probably let in more as they added more restrictions lately. Fairfax is a larger population, so it would be fine with double the numbers.
Also, math in Loudoun elementary is not accelerated. There is no AAP or Level 4 or whatever else Fairfax is doing. The students are likely better able to accelerate in Fairfax, except for the logistics of 6th grade in elementary.
7th grade algebra is also in some schools, half the kids.

That's a "what" answer, not a "why" answer. You say that FCPS should have twice as many students taking algebra in 6th grade, but you don't say why.

DP. I don't think FCPS "should" have twice as many students taking Algebra in 6th. I think that FCPS should give the option to take 6th grade Algebra to any kids who want to do so and are likely to succeed. There are likely well over 100 kids taking Algebra I in 6th grade or even earlier through RSM/AoPS/Chinese School/Curie. It's really dumb to make them sit in a pre-algebra class in FCPS when they're taking more rigorous Algebra classes outside of FCPS.

You really are out of your mind! Just because someone takes a class at AOPS doesn’t mean the district should place them in Algebra in 6th. There no obligation of the school system to recognize coursework done elsewhere. They don’t know the curriculum, how rigorous the assessment was, or even if in fact the kid took the class since it’s just an online account.

Okay. Then give a math placement test to anyone who requests one. FCPS won't do this, either. If your kid is ready for Algebra, and you ask FCPS to give your kid a placement test, they will refuse to do so.

Did you discuss this with your child’s math teacher, presented some evidence that Algebra 1 is the appropriate placement, asked for an assessment etc. The school is not obligated to give your child any special tests because you feel like it. You have to advocate for your child, but by your account you didn’t even ask because apparently this information is hidden to uninvolved and URM parents, whatever the heck that means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

Correct, and cruising through school without ever being challenged is a terrible thing. Eventually, you will be in a class where you're a little over your head, or you need to work hard just to get a B. Learning how to handle that and push through the challenge is an important life skill. Letting kids be on academic tracks that are way too easy for them can lead to very low resilience and imposter syndrome down the road.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

Correct, and cruising through school without ever being challenged is a terrible thing. Eventually, you will be in a class where you're a little over your head, or you need to work hard just to get a B. Learning how to handle that and push through the challenge is an important life skill. Letting kids be on academic tracks that are way too easy for them can lead to very low resilience and imposter syndrome down the road.

So we should put more 6th graders in Honors Algebra and then, when they struggle, tell them it's good for them.

Right. Cure that imposter syndrome, nip it in the bud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

+1

This is such a strange thread. Just ... strange.

First rule of tiger parenting, take Algebra in 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What FCPS needs is a policy similar to what texas has implemented to encourage students to take on advanced math in middle school. The texas state law now requires school districts and charter schools to automatically enroll fifth graders who score in the top 40% on the state standardized math test in advanced math in sixth grade. Families can opt their children out of the advanced class if they choose.

"research has found that students who take four years of math in high school are twice as likely to get a postsecondary credential, such as a certificate, an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. Students whose fourth year of math is a college-aligned course are six times as likely to get a postsecondary credential."

https://www.kut.org/education/2023-06-28/kids-are-probably-better-at-math-than-they-think-a-new-texas-law-could-help-them-realize-it

Reminder that this whole stupid thread is based on a persistent, ignorant OP who refuses to understand that prealgebra in 7th grade is not the same as Algebra 1 in 6th grade, and FCPS already does what is being " proposed" .

It seems like you're the one fervently arguing that 6th graders cannot grasp Algebra 1, despite the fact that our immediate neighboring school system consistently enrolls qualified 6th graders in Algebra 1 with flawless learning outcomes.

There is a difference between enrolling 1% of 6th graders in algebra 1 and enrolling 100% of 6th graders in algebra 1.

granting top 1 or 1.5% with opportunity to advanced math of algebra 1 in 6th grade across all schools, is equitable. isn't it?

The opportunity sure. Unfortunately FCPS's idea of equity is to reduce math for all.

No it isn't. FCPS isn't doing that.

Take a look at the E3 pilot. And Tina Mazzacane works for FCPS and was a major force for VMPI. 'Practice of putting kids in inferior classes must end'.

That doesn’t mean “reduce math for all”. That was an effort to expand options. Killed by Republican propaganda.

The "expanded" options were very similar to what is failing badly in San Fran. For example they were trying to teach a Data Analysis class that didn't have stats or calculus as a pre-req, which is basically meaningless and unhelpful. When even the Washington Post isn't giving your ideas a great review, you know it's not Republican propaganda killing it.

Not true. The issue in SF was around when kids could take Algebra 1, not the content of data science. And even that is not a valid comparison because VADOE never proposed eliminating Algebra 1 from middle schools. In fact, they were discussing having all kids take at least Algebra 1 content by 8th grade.

Twisting the truth is certainly a Republican tactic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Fairfax probably should have twice as many kids in 6th grade algebra.

Why? What's the point?

If the advanced students stick to 7th grade algebra, then they are all advanced together. No one has to be "more advanced" than the advanced kids for college apps.

By that logic they should all stick to 8th grade algebra.

Loudoun has its 6th graders doing well in algebra, and they could probably let in more as they added more restrictions lately. Fairfax is a larger population, so it would be fine with double the numbers.
Also, math in Loudoun elementary is not accelerated. There is no AAP or Level 4 or whatever else Fairfax is doing. The students are likely better able to accelerate in Fairfax, except for the logistics of 6th grade in elementary.
7th grade algebra is also in some schools, half the kids.

That's a "what" answer, not a "why" answer. You say that FCPS should have twice as many students taking algebra in 6th grade, but you don't say why.

DP. I don't think FCPS "should" have twice as many students taking Algebra in 6th. I think that FCPS should give the option to take 6th grade Algebra to any kids who want to do so and are likely to succeed. There are likely well over 100 kids taking Algebra I in 6th grade or even earlier through RSM/AoPS/Chinese School/Curie. It's really dumb to make them sit in a pre-algebra class in FCPS when they're taking more rigorous Algebra classes outside of FCPS.

You really are out of your mind! Just because someone takes a class at AOPS doesn’t mean the district should place them in Algebra in 6th. There no obligation of the school system to recognize coursework done elsewhere. They don’t know the curriculum, how rigorous the assessment was, or even if in fact the kid took the class since it’s just an online account.

Okay. Then give a math placement test to anyone who requests one. FCPS won't do this, either. If your kid is ready for Algebra, and you ask FCPS to give your kid a placement test, they will refuse to do so.

Did you discuss this with your child’s math teacher, presented some evidence that Algebra 1 is the appropriate placement, asked for an assessment etc. The school is not obligated to give your child any special tests because you feel like it. You have to advocate for your child, but by your account you didn’t even ask because apparently this information is hidden to uninvolved and URM parents, whatever the heck that means.

Again, you're mixing up posters. I did discuss with my child's teachers, and everyone agreed that Algebra would be the appropriate placement in a grade level earlier than 7th. Gatehouse said that the kid absolutely needs to have a butt in a seat of a 6th grade AAP math class for a year, meet the IAAT benchmark, and get a pass advanced on the SOL. Period. I even had a meeting with the math resource head for Gatehouse. He said that there is no alternative test for Algebra, and that there is zero flexibility for the FCPS policy. You can ask until you're blue in the face, but they will not give a math placement test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

Correct, and cruising through school without ever being challenged is a terrible thing. Eventually, you will be in a class where you're a little over your head, or you need to work hard just to get a B. Learning how to handle that and push through the challenge is an important life skill. Letting kids be on academic tracks that are way too easy for them can lead to very low resilience and imposter syndrome down the road.

So we should put more 6th graders in Honors Algebra and then, when they struggle, tell them it's good for them.

Right. Cure that imposter syndrome, nip it in the bud.

Then it’s the teachers fault for grading too hard, and expecting that students learn the material outside of class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

Correct, and cruising through school without ever being challenged is a terrible thing. Eventually, you will be in a class where you're a little over your head, or you need to work hard just to get a B. Learning how to handle that and push through the challenge is an important life skill. Letting kids be on academic tracks that are way too easy for them can lead to very low resilience and imposter syndrome down the road.

So we should put more 6th graders in Honors Algebra and then, when they struggle, tell them it's good for them.

Right. Cure that imposter syndrome, nip it in the bud.

Why do you assume that these kids would struggle? It would be good for them to get some degree of challenge in an Algebra I class rather than sit through a pre-algebra class for which they already know all of the material.

[Anonymous]

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Take a look at the E3 pilot. And Tina Mazzacane works for FCPS and was a major force for VMPI. 'Practice of putting kids in inferior classes must end'.

That doesn’t mean “reduce math for all”. That was an effort to expand options. Killed by Republican propaganda.

That is not true at all.

Parents across the political and racial spectrum opposed VMPI because it was terrible policy and would have severely damaged the quality of public education in Virginia.

Agreed. VMPI did have a component that was focused on potentially expanding math options at the 11th and 12th grade levels, but it was also stated that they wanted to deemphasize calculus in HS and up until 11th grade were going to have classes where everyone taking the same classes, no acceleration/different levels. When there was an outcry about that, they tried to backpedal and say they wouldn't prohibit districts from acceleration, but it couldn't recover and got killed with the Younkin administration.

Untrue. They always included AP/IB and never said districts couldn’t accelerate kids. Someone mentioned detracking was a trend in math and (politically motivated) people falsely claimed VADOE was going to “ban” acceleration. Even if that were true, they hadn’t even come up with a proposal yet for public review.

The “public outcry” was a political machination. Maybe some gullible people joined in but at the root it was a GOP attack on education.

This is always being claimed on here, but it ignores what Loudoun implemented after close discussion with Tina Mazzacane and the VMPI group. They published a new math pathways chart, with a video titled introducing VMPI. They eliminated 6th grade algebra, and county staff said their goal was to eliminate 6th grade prealgebra, and that they believed it was important to eliminate tracking for equity reasons. Somehow Tina Mazzacane didn't respond as you are doing that there is nothing here about eliminating acceleration.

Cutting 6th grade algebra isn’t eliminating acceleration. Kids could still accelerate by 2 grade levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fairfax probably should have twice as many kids in 6th grade algebra.

Why? What's the point?

If the advanced students stick to 7th grade algebra, then they are all advanced together. No one has to be "more advanced" than the advanced kids for college apps.

By that logic they should all stick to 8th grade algebra.

Loudoun has its 6th graders doing well in algebra, and they could probably let in more as they added more restrictions lately. Fairfax is a larger population, so it would be fine with double the numbers.
Also, math in Loudoun elementary is not accelerated. There is no AAP or Level 4 or whatever else Fairfax is doing. The students are likely better able to accelerate in Fairfax, except for the logistics of 6th grade in elementary.
7th grade algebra is also in some schools, half the kids.

That's a "what" answer, not a "why" answer. You say that FCPS should have twice as many students taking algebra in 6th grade, but you don't say why.

DP. I don't think FCPS "should" have twice as many students taking Algebra in 6th. I think that FCPS should give the option to take 6th grade Algebra to any kids who want to do so and are likely to succeed. There are likely well over 100 kids taking Algebra I in 6th grade or even earlier through RSM/AoPS/Chinese School/Curie. It's really dumb to make them sit in a pre-algebra class in FCPS when they're taking more rigorous Algebra classes outside of FCPS.

You really are out of your mind! Just because someone takes a class at AOPS doesn’t mean the district should place them in Algebra in 6th. There no obligation of the school system to recognize coursework done elsewhere. They don’t know the curriculum, how rigorous the assessment was, or even if in fact the kid took the class since it’s just an online account.

Okay. Then give a math placement test to anyone who requests one. FCPS won't do this, either. If your kid is ready for Algebra, and you ask FCPS to give your kid a placement test, they will refuse to do so.

Did you discuss this with your child’s math teacher, presented some evidence that Algebra 1 is the appropriate placement, asked for an assessment etc. The school is not obligated to give your child any special tests because you feel like it. You have to advocate for your child, but by your account you didn’t even ask because apparently this information is hidden to uninvolved and URM parents, whatever the heck that means.

Again, you're mixing up posters. I did discuss with my child's teachers, and everyone agreed that Algebra would be the appropriate placement in a grade level earlier than 7th. Gatehouse said that the kid absolutely needs to have a butt in a seat of a 6th grade AAP math class for a year, meet the IAAT benchmark, and get a pass advanced on the SOL. Period. I even had a meeting with the math resource head for Gatehouse. He said that there is no alternative test for Algebra, and that there is zero flexibility for the FCPS policy. You can ask until you're blue in the face, but they will not give a math placement test.

So in fact your kid didn’t actually pass the criteria for Algebra placement that included IAAT and SOL thresholds and didn’t complete the required prerequisite of 6th grade AAP, but you discussed with your child’s teachers and “everyone agreed”. In my view that was the appropriate decision.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Some of you never felt over your head in class and it shows.

Correct, and cruising through school without ever being challenged is a terrible thing. Eventually, you will be in a class where you're a little over your head, or you need to work hard just to get a B. Learning how to handle that and push through the challenge is an important life skill. Letting kids be on academic tracks that are way too easy for them can lead to very low resilience and imposter syndrome down the road.

So everyone on this thread who was never in over their head, you're mad because you weren't taking Algebra 1 in 6th grade but in 7th instead, right? That's why you think not having open enrollment for Algebra 1 Honors in 6th grade is a travesty?

No? Didn't think so. I'm sorry your district didn't have even FCPS's standard advanced track available to you...as many in the US don't.

[Anonymous]

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you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

No it's not. The criteria to take Algebra in 6th grade isn't hidden. It's very high and the class is inappropriate for the vast majority of students, whether or not they are URM.

+1. My current 6th grader scored in the 97th percentile on the IOWA. Doing great in math, but absolutely not ready for Algebra 1 Honors this year - next year is fine.

IAAT specifically, or a lower level Iowa Test?

How do you know DC isn't ready for Algebra?

IAAT. And DC's was not ready because the early units for math 7 this year threw her for a loop - there were a few concepts she needed to brush up on and it would have been tough to be in a credit bearing honors course while brushing up on them. Will be ready by next year.

I wonder if the people pushing for more kids to just be plunked into Algebra 1 honors in 6th whether they want it or not are even thinking about the fact that this course goes on the transcript?

The bolded is the key issue. Kids should not be plunked into Algebra I honors in 6th or even in 7th if the kid doesn't want to do so. There are some kids who would thrive in Algebra I honors in 6th, but aren't given the chance due to the FCPS gatekeeping. There are other kids in Algebra I honors in 6th who don't want to be there and only are because the parents are pushing it.

FCPS would rather err on the side of keeping kids out if there's any chance at all that the kid would struggle. They also gatekeep pretty extensively, because they know that a lot of parents would push their kids into the highest track, even if the kid doesn't belong there and doesn't want to do it. I would rather err on the side of letting more kids into the advanced class, as long as they show enough basic proficiency that they're unlikely to fail, and as long as they understand that the class will not slow down for them if they're struggling.

At the risk that they get a C in 6th grade (GPA 2.5 instead of GPA 4.5) in a course they would have gotten an A on in 7th or 8th? Really?

As long as the parents and kid understand the risks and have accurate information about the likelihood that their kid will struggle, I see no reason to deny them the choice. Gatekeeping might protect some kids from their parents' poor choices, but it also holds back some kids who would thrive with more acceleration. If FCPS changed their policies to make Algebra I open enrollment for 7th grade, but forced parents to sign something stating that they understand that if their kid didn't score 91st percentile+ on IAAT or didn't get a pass advanced on the 7th grade SOL, their kid is likely to struggle in Algebra I, I'm not sure how many parents would push their kids into it anyway. Of the ones who would push their kids in, I'm not sure how many of those kids are fully supported by their teachers for Algebra I, but had an uncharacteristic off day on one of the tests.

With the view DCUM posters have expressed about how URM don't know how to navigate the FCPS, now they are supposed to understand the likelihood and implications of their kid being jumped ahead 3 years in math? That's not consistent thinking at all.

[Anonymous]

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Take a look at the E3 pilot. And Tina Mazzacane works for FCPS and was a major force for VMPI. 'Practice of putting kids in inferior classes must end'.

That doesn’t mean “reduce math for all”. That was an effort to expand options. Killed by Republican propaganda.

That is not true at all.

Parents across the political and racial spectrum opposed VMPI because it was terrible policy and would have severely damaged the quality of public education in Virginia.

Agreed. VMPI did have a component that was focused on potentially expanding math options at the 11th and 12th grade levels, but it was also stated that they wanted to deemphasize calculus in HS and up until 11th grade were going to have classes where everyone taking the same classes, no acceleration/different levels. When there was an outcry about that, they tried to backpedal and say they wouldn't prohibit districts from acceleration, but it couldn't recover and got killed with the Younkin administration.

Untrue. They always included AP/IB and never said districts couldn’t accelerate kids. Someone mentioned detracking was a trend in math and (politically motivated) people falsely claimed VADOE was going to “ban” acceleration. Even if that were true, they hadn’t even come up with a proposal yet for public review.

The “public outcry” was a political machination. Maybe some gullible people joined in but at the root it was a GOP attack on education.

This is always being claimed on here, but it ignores what Loudoun implemented after close discussion with Tina Mazzacane and the VMPI group. They published a new math pathways chart, with a video titled introducing VMPI. They eliminated 6th grade algebra, and county staff said their goal was to eliminate 6th grade prealgebra, and that they believed it was important to eliminate tracking for equity reasons. Somehow Tina Mazzacane didn't respond as you are doing that there is nothing here about eliminating acceleration.

Cutting 6th grade algebra isn’t eliminating acceleration. Kids could still accelerate by 2 grade levels.

This is true, but parent has to be college educated, leaving URM parents at a disadvantage. Since evidence shows 6th graders who have taken Algebra 1 have nothing but As, why not provide that option to all.