Virginia parents do not have many good in-state options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

You sound like every other class in State U has 500+ students. Which they obvious don’t. Your argument is specious.

In my experience, fresh/soph year for STEM/CS/Eng majors, that is the case for the core sequences or at least 200-300+. And IMO, once you hit 100+, and then again at 200+, you are not in an environment that includes engagement during the lecture. So first 2 years 3 of your 4 courses are exactly like that. And the ones that aren't are not typically 25 students at a large state U, unless you are a Russian Lit major.

And at the smaller private Universities, my kids are/have been taught by actual professors for all their courses. It's the Profs who hold office hours (so do TAs who run discussions/help with the course, but the profs always have weekly hours as well). My kid can easily schedule a meeting with their advisor the same day or next day. In fact, they had an advisor in their major assigned before they arrived on campus freshman year, who helped with course selection for fall freshman year.

I think the above adds great value to your education. And while I do care that a University is making an effort to ensure low income kids graduate, I'm smart enough to recognize that ultimately that depends upon many factors outside the university's control. So it's not an important part of "college quality"

DP. You specifically said "500+" in your earlier post. So you admit, you were lying. My DC attends VT and has never, ever had a class larger than 100 (34% of classes have fewer than 20 students) and has never had a TA teaching the class. Student to faculty ratio is 17:1. Profs all hold office hours, and advisors are easy to schedule appointments with. Oh! And my kid ALSO had an advisor in their major assigned to them the summer before freshman year, just like yours! The same advisor has been with my DC each year.

Great that you're happy with your kids' smaller, private universities, but it doesn't seem like you know very much about the schools your kids DON'T attend. Maybe you should stop making assumptions and sweeping generalizations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nuts. Virginia has a lot of good public colleges for only 8.6M residents. Way more options on a per capita basis than vast majority of states of a similar size.

Pennsylvania has 12.9M residents.

How many decent public colleges/universities for a state of that size? Penn State and Pitt. That's it. Neither of which hold a candle to UVA, W&M, and VT. Pitt is a slightly better version of JMU. Penn State doesn't have an analogue in VA, it's more similar to UMD-CP.

So yeah, VA has an amazing public university system given the moderate size of the state. Sure, the UC system is the best in country but those schools are ENORMOUS. And "best" is really just a measurement of research dollars. If your kid wants a classic liberal arts education prior to going to law school, they are better off at UVA than UCLA or Berkeley.

UMD is ranked ahead of VT across the board, particularly in CS and engineering.

UMD is ranked 46. VT is 47. Their other rankings are practically identical - with the exception of VT engineering ranked 13 and UMD engineering ranked 19.
DP
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/virginia-tech-3754/overall-rankings
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-maryland-2103/overall-rankings

lol. Way to go with the stats!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

JMU "which is just good" according to you is ranked similar to many state's Flagship/top public school. So JMU #4 is equivalent to Other State #1.
So by definition, VA has many good options. They have 3 top options and their #4/5 are about the same as many states Top public. Most would love to have the options VA has.

The big difference between Virginia and other states is the size of the flagship. In states with big flagships, kids who would go to JMU in Virginia go to the number 1 school because it takes as many instate students as UVA, W&M, VT, JMU combined because Virginia does not force public schools to preference instate nearly as strongly as other states

DP. You have missed the point by a mile. It doesn't matter whether a school is considered a "flagship" or not - even if it's the "#1" school in a given state, who cares if it's ranked low? For instance, University of New Mexico is the flagship - and it's ranked #236. Yay?
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-new-mexico-10313

What the PP also has wrong is assuming that UVA is the flagship. it is not. Virginia, by purpose, does not have a flagship. look it up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

You sound like every other class in State U has 500+ students. Which they obvious don’t. Your argument is specious.

In my experience, fresh/soph year for STEM/CS/Eng majors, that is the case for the core sequences or at least 200-300+. And IMO, once you hit 100+, and then again at 200+, you are not in an environment that includes engagement during the lecture. So first 2 years 3 of your 4 courses are exactly like that. And the ones that aren't are not typically 25 students at a large state U, unless you are a Russian Lit major.

And at the smaller private Universities, my kids are/have been taught by actual professors for all their courses. It's the Profs who hold office hours (so do TAs who run discussions/help with the course, but the profs always have weekly hours as well). My kid can easily schedule a meeting with their advisor the same day or next day. In fact, they had an advisor in their major assigned before they arrived on campus freshman year, who helped with course selection for fall freshman year.

I think the above adds great value to your education. And while I do care that a University is making an effort to ensure low income kids graduate, I'm smart enough to recognize that ultimately that depends upon many factors outside the university's control. So it's not an important part of "college quality"

DP. You specifically said "500+" in your earlier post. So you admit, you were lying. My DC attends VT and has never, ever had a class larger than 100 (34% of classes have fewer than 20 students) and has never had a TA teaching the class. Student to faculty ratio is 17:1. Profs all hold office hours, and advisors are easy to schedule appointments with. Oh! And my kid ALSO had an advisor in their major assigned to them the summer before freshman year, just like yours! The same advisor has been with my DC each year.

Great that you're happy with your kids' smaller, private universities, but it doesn't seem like you know very much about the schools your kids DON'T attend. Maybe you should stop making assumptions and sweeping generalizations?

Yeah, I'm waiting too. UVA makes a big deal about the largest room they have on campus to counter arguments like this - it's the same one used by admissions office pre-tour. And hint: it's nowhere near 500 or 300 or . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

OP is delusional. It's actually pretty amusing.

OP is a maryland troll upset with in-state options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

OP is delusional. It's actually pretty amusing.

OP is a maryland troll upset with in-state options

Bingo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

OP is delusional. It's actually pretty amusing.

OP is a maryland troll upset with in-state options

Bingo.

I think so. Headline gave them away. Or could also be frustrated DC type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Oh, please. They might have changed the formula somewhat to account for first-gen and Pell grants, but the rankings are absolutely based mostly on academics - and even more important, outcome after graduation.
DP

Well, it's a mix. USNWR definitely went woke and is playing up the social mobility, Pell grant, low-income angle (which hurt some universities like UVA - because - if you understand how Pell grants work - they are decided AFTER admission, so the chances of picking up a Pell Grant applicant is determined by the economic status of ALL of the applicants and percentage of chance. Californians in the college applicant cohort have more low-income students than VA does, so naturally (and demographically) the California schools score higher in Pell Grant admissions. But anyone who understands college admissions knows that's really a false determinative. But USNWR likes it so here we are). But, yes, it is true because of the increased importance that USNWR is putting on these categories some universities will go up and some will go down. You need to study what is really going on to figure out just what these rankings mean. Nevertheless, you cannot say, as you did, "but the rankings are absolutely based mostly on academics " because they aren't anymore and really haven't been for a long time. It's much more about social and dei issues and alumni giving and size of the library and percentage of alumni giving and so on, as you know. Also, ROI - which USNWR has pushed up on - naturally favors universities like MIT with huge tech schools. It does not favor the liberal arts or broad-minded universities like UVA.

It is what it is. But the more you read about the rankings the more you understand and can appreciate what they are trying to say. But you cannot take them as the first or last word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

EXACTLY.

OK, tell ME. I have studied college admissions for a long time and I have no idea what you two are talking about "second tier privates" getting slammed or revealed during the most recent USNWR reporting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Oh, please. They might have changed the formula somewhat to account for first-gen and Pell grants, but the rankings are absolutely based mostly on academics - and even more important, outcome after graduation.
DP

Well, it's a mix. USNWR definitely went woke and is playing up the social mobility, Pell grant, low-income angle (which hurt some universities like UVA - because - if you understand how Pell grants work - they are decided AFTER admission, so the chances of picking up a Pell Grant applicant is determined by the economic status of ALL of the applicants and percentage of chance. Californians in the college applicant cohort have more low-income students than VA does, so naturally (and demographically) the California schools score higher in Pell Grant admissions. But anyone who understands college admissions knows that's really a false determinative. But USNWR likes it so here we are). But, yes, it is true because of the increased importance that USNWR is putting on these categories some universities will go up and some will go down. You need to study what is really going on to figure out just what these rankings mean. Nevertheless, you cannot say, as you did, "but the rankings are absolutely based mostly on academics " because they aren't anymore and really haven't been for a long time. It's much more about social and dei issues and alumni giving and size of the library and percentage of alumni giving and so on, as you know. Also, ROI - which USNWR has pushed up on - naturally favors universities like MIT with huge tech schools. It does not favor the liberal arts or broad-minded universities like UVA.

It is what it is. But the more you read about the rankings the more you understand and can appreciate what they are trying to say. But you cannot take them as the first or last word.

Good grief. I know all this already, thanks! And as you just said, they "really haven't been for a long time" (about academics). So your point(s) are essentially meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

JMU "which is just good" according to you is ranked similar to many state's Flagship/top public school. So JMU #4 is equivalent to Other State #1.
So by definition, VA has many good options. They have 3 top options and their #4/5 are about the same as many states Top public. Most would love to have the options VA has.

Hello. You said, and I quote from the title of this thread "Virginia parents do not have many good in-state options". How on earth are you going to defend that statement with 30+ universities and colleges offered in a state with a smaller populace than MD (which I assume you are from because you are trolling).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the PP also has wrong is assuming that UVA is the flagship. it is not. Virginia, by purpose, does not have a flagship. look it up

This. Virginia does not really have a Flagship. W&M is much older than UVa, if even smaller, and is similarly well regarded as UVa. VT is much larger than UVa, the best engineering school in VA, and is the land-grant university. There was an explicit decision made by the Commonwealth in the 1960s not to have a “UV somewhere system” analogous to California’s “UC system”, but instead to spin out ODU from W&M, spin out GMU from UVa, and to build up JMU and Radford from their origin as teacher’s colleges.

Maryland (e.g., UMD at CP, at BC, at ES) and NC (e.g., UNC at CH, at W) went the other direction, copying the California model and also decided to have a flagship.

[Anonymous]

why so much hate with Mason?
I keep seeing post about how everyone hates it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VA is definitely in the top 3 as far as public education at the college level. Its second tier schools JMU, GMU, etc, are better than a number of state flagships.

Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are clearly the top three. UVA is number 5 now, below UNC. Try to keep up.

Try to read. The state of Virginia is in the top 3 states in the US with respect to public education options. Schools like JMU and GMU are better options than Ole Miss or Mizzou.

Is JMU really better than Mizzou?

In many rankings they are basically the same. However, Mizzou is their state's Flagship. JMU is largely considered the #4/5 school in VA.

I assume that means that there are probably some really smart kids at Mizzou since it’s the best public school in the state.

Just like there are some really smart kids at JMU. Heck, there are really smart kids at UMW and VCU

Every university in the Top 200-300 has a decent group of "really smart kids". And yes if your state flagship is only ranked "150" then the honors college will be filled with "really smart kids".

There might be smart kids everywhere, but the cohort of really smart kids is bigger at Mizzou than at JMU, because in Virginia the top kids get skimmed off by UVA.

You can check the CDSs. Compared to JMU, more kids at Mizzou submit test scores (both by number and as a percent of the entering class), and the percent scoring over various benchmarks is also higher at Mizzou.

If your really smart kid can only function well if surrounded by all equally "smart people" they might benefit from attending a more "academically diverse" school. Fact is once they exit college, they will be surrounded by people of all levels. Their colleagues likely graduated from a variety of universities, their boss might have even gone to a school like UMW or CNU or VCU or Towson or Salisbury. They will need to learn to function while not surrounded by tippy top students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

DP. Please tell us which universities in VA (since that's the subject of this thread) have 500+ class sizes? We'll wait.

We'll also wait for you to read the post this was responding to.

This was in response to post that stated: "Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier." So it was in response to why large public universities jumped in rankings over smaller private schools just this year with all the methodology changes.