Virginia parents do not have many good in-state options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VA is definitely in the top 3 as far as public education at the college level. Its second tier schools JMU, GMU, etc, are better than a number of state flagships.

Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are clearly the top three. UVA is number 5 now, below UNC. Try to keep up.

Try to read. The state of Virginia is in the top 3 states in the US with respect to public education options. Schools like JMU and GMU are better options than Ole Miss or Mizzou.

Is JMU really better than Mizzou?

In many rankings they are basically the same. However, Mizzou is their state's Flagship. JMU is largely considered the #4/5 school in VA.

I assume that means that there are probably some really smart kids at Mizzou since it’s the best public school in the state.

Just like there are some really smart kids at JMU. Heck, there are really smart kids at UMW and VCU

Every university in the Top 200-300 has a decent group of "really smart kids". And yes if your state flagship is only ranked "150" then the honors college will be filled with "really smart kids".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Oh, please. They might have changed the formula somewhat to account for first-gen and Pell grants, but the rankings are absolutely based mostly on academics - and even more important, outcome after graduation.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Richmond is private, not public.

But there are lots more....VCU, CNU, ODU, Radford, VMI, UMW. Not sure what more OP needs.

Some are very selective, some not selective at all and some in between.

+1. VA has some of the better state schools around. What the OP wants, I suspect is more schools at the UVA/W&M/VaTech "ranking". They could not imagine sending their kid to GMU, JMU, VCU, ODU, Radford, Mary Washington, etc.

MD has UMD and then it drops to UMBC (266) and then Towson (459)

UVA is 55 and VaTEch is 106 (These are college simply rankings, so you merge all LA, SLAC, regional universities into one ranking). JMU is 258, GMU is 244, VCU 455.

It's a no brainer---VA has much better options for in state than MD.

Just use USNWR rankings, like everyone else. No one uses "college simply."
DP

USNWR does NOT rank all universities in one, single category. So while not perfect, college simply is a good method for rankings if you want to compare.

Not when college simply isn't a well-known or trusted source and USNWR is - not to mention, USNWR is the standard ranking that most people utilize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VA is definitely in the top 3 as far as public education at the college level. Its second tier schools JMU, GMU, etc, are better than a number of state flagships.

Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are clearly the top three. UVA is number 5 now, below UNC. Try to keep up.

Try to read. The state of Virginia is in the top 3 states in the US with respect to public education options. Schools like JMU and GMU are better options than Ole Miss or Mizzou.

Is JMU really better than Mizzou?

In many rankings they are basically the same. However, Mizzou is their state's Flagship. JMU is largely considered the #4/5 school in VA.

I assume that means that there are probably some really smart kids at Mizzou since it’s the best public school in the state.

Just like there are some really smart kids at JMU. Heck, there are really smart kids at UMW and VCU

Every university in the Top 200-300 has a decent group of "really smart kids". And yes if your state flagship is only ranked "150" then the honors college will be filled with "really smart kids".

There might be smart kids everywhere, but the cohort of really smart kids is bigger at Mizzou than at JMU, because in Virginia the top kids get skimmed off by UVA.

You can check the CDSs. Compared to JMU, more kids at Mizzou submit test scores (both by number and as a percent of the entering class), and the percent scoring over various benchmarks is also higher at Mizzou.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

EXACTLY.

[Anonymous]

I think Virginia has great in-state options if your DC wants to find a job in the area after graduation. I would say Virginia's options are better than Maryland's, Pennsylvania's, and Tennesee's options. I agree that UVA, VaTech and W&M need to expand enrollment. And UVA should be made to limit OOS enrollment. What did North Carolina and California residents do to advocate for a smaller OOS enrollment for their schools? Virginia residents need to copy that playbook and get Richmond to legislate it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nuts. Virginia has a lot of good public colleges for only 8.6M residents. Way more options on a per capita basis than vast majority of states of a similar size.

Pennsylvania has 12.9M residents.

How many decent public colleges/universities for a state of that size? Penn State and Pitt. That's it. Neither of which hold a candle to UVA, W&M, and VT. Pitt is a slightly better version of JMU. Penn State doesn't have an analogue in VA, it's more similar to UMD-CP.

So yeah, VA has an amazing public university system given the moderate size of the state. Sure, the UC system is the best in country but those schools are ENORMOUS. And "best" is really just a measurement of research dollars. If your kid wants a classic liberal arts education prior to going to law school, they are better off at UVA than UCLA or Berkeley.

UMD is ranked ahead of VT across the board, particularly in CS and engineering.

UMD is ranked 46. VT is 47. Their other rankings are practically identical - with the exception of VT engineering ranked 13 and UMD engineering ranked 19.
DP
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/virginia-tech-3754/overall-rankings
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-maryland-2103/overall-rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nuts. Virginia has a lot of good public colleges for only 8.6M residents. Way more options on a per capita basis than vast majority of states of a similar size.

Pennsylvania has 12.9M residents.

How many decent public colleges/universities for a state of that size? Penn State and Pitt. That's it. Neither of which hold a candle to UVA, W&M, and VT. Pitt is a slightly better version of JMU. Penn State doesn't have an analogue in VA, it's more similar to UMD-CP.

So yeah, VA has an amazing public university system given the moderate size of the state. Sure, the UC system is the best in country but those schools are ENORMOUS. And "best" is really just a measurement of research dollars. If your kid wants a classic liberal arts education prior to going to law school, they are better off at UVA than UCLA or Berkeley.

UMD is ranked ahead of VT across the board, particularly in CS and engineering.

I think you mean PSU, not VT?

US News grad school ranking. UMD is literally ranked ahead of VT in virtually every major, including everything STEM. Take a look.

No one is talking about grad school - nice try!
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

OP is delusional. It's actually pretty amusing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

DP. Please tell us which universities in VA (since that's the subject of this thread) have 500+ class sizes? We'll wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VA is definitely in the top 3 as far as public education at the college level. Its second tier schools JMU, GMU, etc, are better than a number of state flagships.

Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are clearly the top three. UVA is number 5 now, below UNC. Try to keep up.

Try to read. The state of Virginia is in the top 3 states in the US with respect to public education options. Schools like JMU and GMU are better options than Ole Miss or Mizzou.

Is JMU really better than Mizzou?

In many rankings they are basically the same. However, Mizzou is their state's Flagship. JMU is largely considered the #4/5 school in VA.

JMU and Mizzou are tied in the rankings, regardless of "flagship" status:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/james-madison-university-3721
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-missouri-2516

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

JMU "which is just good" according to you is ranked similar to many state's Flagship/top public school. So JMU #4 is equivalent to Other State #1.
So by definition, VA has many good options. They have 3 top options and their #4/5 are about the same as many states Top public. Most would love to have the options VA has.

Precisely this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

JMU "which is just good" according to you is ranked similar to many state's Flagship/top public school. So JMU #4 is equivalent to Other State #1.
So by definition, VA has many good options. They have 3 top options and their #4/5 are about the same as many states Top public. Most would love to have the options VA has.

The big difference between Virginia and other states is the size of the flagship. In states with big flagships, kids who would go to JMU in Virginia go to the number 1 school because it takes as many instate students as UVA, W&M, VT, JMU combined because Virginia does not force public schools to preference instate nearly as strongly as other states

DP. You have missed the point by a mile. It doesn't matter whether a school is considered a "flagship" or not - even if it's the "#1" school in a given state, who cares if it's ranked low? For instance, University of New Mexico is the flagship - and it's ranked #236. Yay?
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-new-mexico-10313

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think Virginia has great in-state options if your DC wants to find a job in the area after graduation. I would say Virginia's options are better than Maryland's, Pennsylvania's, and Tennesee's options. I agree that UVA, VaTech and W&M need to expand enrollment. And UVA should be made to limit OOS enrollment. What did North Carolina and California residents do to advocate for a smaller OOS enrollment for their schools? Virginia residents need to copy that playbook and get Richmond to legislate it.

This is an interesting story on the history of the NC limit: https://www.carolinaalumnireview.com/carolinaalumnireview/20020304/MobilePagedReplica.action?pm=2&folio=20#pg22 although I don't think it's that instructive for Virginians in 2023.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP