FCPS High School Poverty and Enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is IB some kind of European thing?

Yes. The IB Diploma is supposed to mimic or create a more European approach to HS then the the US diploma. I know it is not a perfect mapping but I have always viewed the European HS Diploma to an Associate degree from a community college. It feels like the European HS experience is more focused on picking an area of study, taking classes across the major areas but choosing a major and minor field. I know it is not a one to one comparison but that is my feel for the situation. The IB is meant to mimic that experience. Kids who complete the IB Diploma are supposed to be more easily accepted into International Universities then kids who don’t. That said, I think a straight A student from an AP school probably has very few problems getting into an International School.

Pretty much everywhere else IB is an impressive program from both the university's and parents' perspective. But Northern Virginia is a bubble in that most parents want their kids to go to JMU, VT, W&M, or UVA, and then kids return home to Fairfax County for work. The breadth and flexibility of IB isn't really taken advantage of in this area.

IB at Robinson and South Lakes is impressive. It is not impressive when the cohort is so small that no one is going for HL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is IB some kind of European thing?

Yes. The IB Diploma is supposed to mimic or create a more European approach to HS then the the US diploma. I know it is not a perfect mapping but I have always viewed the European HS Diploma to an Associate degree from a community college. It feels like the European HS experience is more focused on picking an area of study, taking classes across the major areas but choosing a major and minor field. I know it is not a one to one comparison but that is my feel for the situation. The IB is meant to mimic that experience. Kids who complete the IB Diploma are supposed to be more easily accepted into International Universities then kids who don’t. That said, I think a straight A student from an AP school probably has very few problems getting into an International School.

Pretty much everywhere else IB is an impressive program from both the university's and parents' perspective. But Northern Virginia is a bubble in that most parents want their kids to go to JMU, VT, W&M, or UVA, and then kids return home to Fairfax County for work. The breadth and flexibility of IB isn't really taken advantage of in this area.

Disagree. IB seems to impress people the most when it’s added to a school in a jurisdiction where the schools previously offered little in terms of any advanced academics. It had its day in FCPS where people got excited about it in the late 90s and early 00s but, with several decades of experience under everyone’s belt, the thrill is gone. Now it’s kind of a relic but FCPS is too sclerotic to do anything about it. And unfortunately it also locks them into existing boundaries at the HS level because they know how upset most people at an AP school would be if reassigned to an IB school.

Sort of bizarre to talk about the most internationally recognized HS curriculum as if it's some 90s/00s fad. Fairfax can really be a provincial bubble sometimes.

It’s precisely because FCPS was a relatively early adopter of IB that we now know with several decades of experience that it’s not all that. Meanwhile the top schools in FCPS, with their substantial numbers of international and second-generation families, are happily AP

But good luck if you think people will allow themselves to get reassigned to weak IB schools without a big fight, or be deterred by some random poster calling them “provincial.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is IB some kind of European thing?

Yes. The IB Diploma is supposed to mimic or create a more European approach to HS then the the US diploma. I know it is not a perfect mapping but I have always viewed the European HS Diploma to an Associate degree from a community college. It feels like the European HS experience is more focused on picking an area of study, taking classes across the major areas but choosing a major and minor field. I know it is not a one to one comparison but that is my feel for the situation. The IB is meant to mimic that experience. Kids who complete the IB Diploma are supposed to be more easily accepted into International Universities then kids who don’t. That said, I think a straight A student from an AP school probably has very few problems getting into an International School.

Pretty much everywhere else IB is an impressive program from both the university's and parents' perspective. But Northern Virginia is a bubble in that most parents want their kids to go to JMU, VT, W&M, or UVA, and then kids return home to Fairfax County for work. The breadth and flexibility of IB isn't really taken advantage of in this area.

IB at Robinson and South Lakes is impressive. It is not impressive when the cohort is so small that no one is going for HL.

And, most of the parents I know at South Lakes would MUCH prefer AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is IB some kind of European thing?

Yes. The IB Diploma is supposed to mimic or create a more European approach to HS then the the US diploma. I know it is not a perfect mapping but I have always viewed the European HS Diploma to an Associate degree from a community college. It feels like the European HS experience is more focused on picking an area of study, taking classes across the major areas but choosing a major and minor field. I know it is not a one to one comparison but that is my feel for the situation. The IB is meant to mimic that experience. Kids who complete the IB Diploma are supposed to be more easily accepted into International Universities then kids who don’t. That said, I think a straight A student from an AP school probably has very few problems getting into an International School.

Pretty much everywhere else IB is an impressive program from both the university's and parents' perspective. But Northern Virginia is a bubble in that most parents want their kids to go to JMU, VT, W&M, or UVA, and then kids return home to Fairfax County for work. The breadth and flexibility of IB isn't really taken advantage of in this area.

IB at Robinson and South Lakes is impressive. It is not impressive when the cohort is so small that no one is going for HL.

So, that makes it okay to redistribute kids so there can be a cohort for HL when most families prefer AP?

[Anonymous]

I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

[Anonymous]

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

Have it be a magnet, in the style of TJ. Apply.

Otherwise, any boundary discussion not only involves transportation and geography, but academic availability. It also allows those who don't like their schools to use pupil placement based on IB or AP. Both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The demographics of Fairfax County have changed. Many schools have a higher population on free lunch than before. It is just a fact and is not likely to change.

Boundary adjustments will not change this. It will only make more wealthier people flee the public schools.

+1

FCPS is getting poorer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographics of Fairfax County have changed. Many schools have a higher population on free lunch than before. It is just a fact and is not likely to change.

Boundary adjustments will not change this. It will only make more wealthier people flee the public schools.

+1

FCPS is getting poorer.

30% of FCPS is on free lunch. You are never going to get that dispersed evenly. Teach the kids where they are. It can be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographics of Fairfax County have changed. Many schools have a higher population on free lunch than before. It is just a fact and is not likely to change.

Boundary adjustments will not change this. It will only make more wealthier people flee the public schools.

+1

FCPS is getting poorer.

30% of FCPS is on free lunch. You are never going to get that dispersed evenly. Teach the kids where they are. It can be done.

I agree they should be taught where they are, but FCPS should designate schools at 30% as Title I and get more federal resources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

I think what PP and others are saying is that if you get rid of the IB at some of the lower schools, and put AP in, students will not have the choice to "opt out" of those lower schools, and with the right communication, perhaps those families will go back to their base schools in enough numbers that the schools won't be considered so bad. By having IB, FCPS is giving parents a way to get out of certain schools ... which causes them to have an abundance of low-performing kids, and few high-performing kids... which becomes a vicious cycle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

I think what PP and others are saying is that if you get rid of the IB at some of the lower schools, and put AP in, students will not have the choice to "opt out" of those lower schools, and with the right communication, perhaps those families will go back to their base schools in enough numbers that the schools won't be considered so bad. By having IB, FCPS is giving parents a way to get out of certain schools ... which causes them to have an abundance of low-performing kids, and few high-performing kids... which becomes a vicious cycle.

What are the numbers though? People who pupil place have to provide their own transportation--and they can only go if the receiving school has room. I'd want to see how many people pupil place to know whether would make a measurable difference. In addition, if it's not an option, how many people would just move out at HS then. The people who have the means to pupil place and provide transportation are the people who have the means to move (and who would be more likely prioritize education to move on that basis). I think the issue is not IB/AP, it's that high poverty schools are challenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

I think what PP and others are saying is that if you get rid of the IB at some of the lower schools, and put AP in, students will not have the choice to "opt out" of those lower schools, and with the right communication, perhaps those families will go back to their base schools in enough numbers that the schools won't be considered so bad. By having IB, FCPS is giving parents a way to get out of certain schools ... which causes them to have an abundance of low-performing kids, and few high-performing kids... which becomes a vicious cycle.

What are the numbers though? People who pupil place have to provide their own transportation--and they can only go if the receiving school has room. I'd want to see how many people pupil place to know whether would make a measurable difference. In addition, if it's not an option, how many people would just move out at HS then. The people who have the means to pupil place and provide transportation are the people who have the means to move (and who would be more likely prioritize education to move on that basis). I think the issue is not IB/AP, it's that high poverty schools are challenging.

Hundreds of people pupil place in and out for AP/IB. It is a great excuse to get out of a high poverty school.