Middle Schools for Cap Hill

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:2015 data. LOL.

Brent is less than 70% IB now, so I actually think it’s likely correct to say that 5th grade has very few IBers given that PK is obviously fully IB and the lower grades have very few OOBs students.

Most of the OOB students at Brent live on Capitol Hill, many just a few blocks outside the school's boundary. BS that the 5th grade has very few IBers this year. It's mostly IBers again. It is correct to say that there are hardly any poor kids left at Brent, around 5% at risk.

For Brent to be less than 70% IB, it is nearly mathematically impossible for it to be the case that 5th grade in “mostly” IB students given the demographics of the younger grades.

Huh? This year's 5th grade at Brent is definitely mostly in boundary students. I know because I have a child in 5th grade. My child started at Brent with most of these kids, in the early childhood years, which were 100% in boundary.

What's happening is that more OOB seats are opening in the lower grades with each passing year mainly because in boundary 3-bedroom houses have become so pricey, and inventory so low, that fewer young families are moving into the Brent district with every passing year.

I was gonna call B.S. because conventional wisdom (read: DCUM) says that isn't so. I figured before I replied maybe I should check the published data. Darned if what you said doesn't track with the data. They have been making WL offers in elementary grades for a number of years. Now there is no way to know for sure how many seats they needed to fill based on the WL offers made, but it stands to reason that Brent didn't have to make 50 WL offers to fill only one spot for K. And any WL offers in K+ are OOB kids. Interestingly, over the past few years Maury has gone to the WL less frequently and for fewer WL kids than has Brent. Or even Ludlow for that matter.

Your theory about housing (scarcity, I agree, is the issue) seems logical to me. I think also that as SH has improved and more IB feeder kids stay, combined with Latin and Basis as MS and HS options, combined with application schools with enhanced reputations, that parents with perspective beyond just needs of 3 or 4 year olds might be thinking longer term and making school decisions with a longer time horizon than just "I need to be IB for Brent".

Very interesting trend and data. Thanks for pointing out and making me re-think what I "knew" from reading DCUM common wisdom.

I think its not because of housing within Brent, but because other schools, like LT, have become just as attractive. More housing/schools to pick from, not less.

I have actually long thought that the LT IB is the most desirable on the Hill location-wise, especially if you take into account price. As H St has exploded, I think the cute residential area between it & Stanton Park is basically the ideal spot to live on the Hill. So the crazy rate of gentrification there doesn't surprise me at all. (And check the stats, the rate of gentrification is crazy. LT was T1 2 years ago and now is 9% less economically disadvantaged than Watkins, which I think lost T1 status like 3-4 years before that.)

JO's efforts to increase IB population and have them stick has ben hampered by the presence of Two Rivers 4th Street. If you have ever walked that area between H and TR in the morning you see just how many IB JOW families are walking in their TR shirts to TR. My friends at TR tell me it feels in some grades like a neighborhood school. If even 1/2 of those students went to JOW then it would be closer where LT is. That issue is exacerbated by the fact that IB JOW means IB for SH so those families can have the benefit of TR in ES and then decide whether they want to head down H to the new TR MS.

(To be clear, this is not a shot at TR or charter schools or an argument for why charters are destroying DCPS. TR exists because DCPS failed for years to provide what families desired.)

I think this is right. I think LT would also be even farther along if it weren't for 2R, CHML and SWS, the latter two of which are both IB for LT. I think LT has stopped losing many kids to 2R (in fact, during the pandemic, we gained at least 3 2R families that I know of) and CHML (the swing space really did them in), but obviously still loses kids to SWS.

I agree. I think the reason LT changed so fast was because there were UMC IB students, they were just choosing those other schools. Once that changed and they had velocity there was a ready made IB population. I think the IB demo of JOW is similar. The hope is that if they can get traction it will accelerate quickly for the same reasons. Of course, SWS and CHML's brand spanking new buildings won't help JOW. (Don't get me started on DCPS prioritizing these schools at the expense of JOW's much needed upgrade.)

LT change so fast? When we bought an in-boundary house in 2006, parents in the neighborhood were lobbying DCPS like mad to get rid of a principal who was deeply hostile to high SES/white families who wanted to use the school. They succeeded, then we got Cobbs for 8 years, who was almost as hostile. High SES families often went with LT for the early childhood years, and maybe K, then moved on once they could lottery into Brent, Maury, SWS, even elementary programs in NW. Few high SES families could take Cobbs past K, meaning that LT's IB % dropped during those years. Then there was the long phase where no principal lasted more than 2 years. I feel like LT's "fast improvement" has taken more than 15 years. If you think the school caught on like wildfire with the in-boundary population, you can't have been on the Station Park area scene all that long...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so why isn't Jefferson a lot more popular with UMC in-boundary families and families with children in the several feeder elementary schools? Mainly a question of poor public relations?

At a Jefferson open house I attended this spring, admins were more than a little cagey about what sort of "honors classes" were offered and how students tested into these classes. I couldn't get a straight answer out of them, couldn't make sense of how the placement system worked. By contrast, at Stuart Hobson, I was told exactly how students were evaluated for/admitted to honors English and math classes. I was also told that there weren't any honors science or social studies classes, or any planned.

You answered your own question, because there are charters that actually have honors classes and have better cohorts

This isn't hard folks everyone is trying to trade up to get into the best slot for their kids period.

That's questionable. Latin doesn't have "honors" classes. Neither does BASIS. Both may have high expectations but they don't track. BASIS will allow advanced math placements and provide AP opportunities, sometimes way earlier than advisable. Latin has resisted math tracking for years until finally relenting.

And Stuart Hobson "honors" ELA has been more 'honors for all' during the pandemic. Will remain to see how it's handled moving forward. There's more math tracking available.

[Anonymous]

Except the dc charter schools don't actually have honors classes. If families become open to not just walls but also banneker and mckinley, the odds of a relatively high-achieving child who attended a dcps middle school not having any good high school options other than eastern seems very minimal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so why isn't Jefferson a lot more popular with UMC in-boundary families and families with children in the several feeder elementary schools? Mainly a question of poor public relations?

At a Jefferson open house I attended this spring, admins were more than a little cagey about what sort of "honors classes" were offered and how students tested into these classes. I couldn't get a straight answer out of them, couldn't make sense of how the placement system worked. By contrast, at Stuart Hobson, I was told exactly how students were evaluated for/admitted to honors English and math classes. I was also told that there weren't any honors science or social studies classes, or any planned.

You answered your own question, because there are charters that actually have honors classes and have better cohorts

This isn't hard folks everyone is trying to trade up to get into the best slot for their kids period.

That's questionable. Latin doesn't have "honors" classes. Neither does BASIS. Both may have high expectations but they don't track. BASIS will allow advanced math placements and provide AP opportunities, sometimes way earlier than advisable. Latin has resisted math tracking for years until finally relenting.

And Stuart Hobson "honors" ELA has been more 'honors for all' during the pandemic. Will remain to see how it's handled moving forward. There's more math tracking available.

Straight up folks want charters over Jefferson and SH that's just the way it is and has been for over a decade. Will that eventually change some day who knows. I do agree there are options for high school. No one in their right mind wants their kids at Eastern

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Except the dc charter schools don't actually have honors classes. If families become open to not just walls but also banneker and mckinley, the odds of a relatively high-achieving child who attended a dcps middle school not having any good high school options other than eastern seems very minimal.

As a DCPS parent open to both Banneker and McKinley, the entire admissions process is so poorly managed and carries such uncertainty that it gives me pause, not just for HS applications but as a vote of no confidence for DCPS leadership despite having positive ES and MS experiences. Banneker fails to offer interviews with qualified candidates even as they fall well short of matching their offered lottery seats. McKinley has to fill a fair number of its seats with clearly unqualified candidates. Walls offers deep into its waitlist because they offer to many kids uninterested in attending and they're happy to count on shear volume of qualified applicants to fill seats. The whole process is deeply flawed, and no one has an even passable by right HS unless in the Wilson boundary. Eastern is never going to be Wilson. Granted they have a phenomenal marching band, but its a chaotic poorly managed school where it matters. There's a theme here.

[Anonymous]

In the end, it really all about a flight from ghetto. Nothing more.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:2015 data. LOL.

Brent is less than 70% IB now, so I actually think it’s likely correct to say that 5th grade has very few IBers given that PK is obviously fully IB and the lower grades have very few OOBs students.

Most of the OOB students at Brent live on Capitol Hill, many just a few blocks outside the school's boundary. BS that the 5th grade has very few IBers this year. It's mostly IBers again. It is correct to say that there are hardly any poor kids left at Brent, around 5% at risk.

For Brent to be less than 70% IB, it is nearly mathematically impossible for it to be the case that 5th grade in “mostly” IB students given the demographics of the younger grades.

Huh? This year's 5th grade at Brent is definitely mostly in boundary students. I know because I have a child in 5th grade. My child started at Brent with most of these kids, in the early childhood years, which were 100% in boundary.

What's happening is that more OOB seats are opening in the lower grades with each passing year mainly because in boundary 3-bedroom houses have become so pricey, and inventory so low, that fewer young families are moving into the Brent district with every passing year.

I was gonna call B.S. because conventional wisdom (read: DCUM) says that isn't so. I figured before I replied maybe I should check the published data. Darned if what you said doesn't track with the data. They have been making WL offers in elementary grades for a number of years. Now there is no way to know for sure how many seats they needed to fill based on the WL offers made, but it stands to reason that Brent didn't have to make 50 WL offers to fill only one spot for K. And any WL offers in K+ are OOB kids. Interestingly, over the past few years Maury has gone to the WL less frequently and for fewer WL kids than has Brent. Or even Ludlow for that matter.

Your theory about housing (scarcity, I agree, is the issue) seems logical to me. I think also that as SH has improved and more IB feeder kids stay, combined with Latin and Basis as MS and HS options, combined with application schools with enhanced reputations, that parents with perspective beyond just needs of 3 or 4 year olds might be thinking longer term and making school decisions with a longer time horizon than just "I need to be IB for Brent".

Very interesting trend and data. Thanks for pointing out and making me re-think what I "knew" from reading DCUM common wisdom.

I think its not because of housing within Brent, but because other schools, like LT, have become just as attractive. More housing/schools to pick from, not less.

I have actually long thought that the LT IB is the most desirable on the Hill location-wise, especially if you take into account price. As H St has exploded, I think the cute residential area between it & Stanton Park is basically the ideal spot to live on the Hill. So the crazy rate of gentrification there doesn't surprise me at all. (And check the stats, the rate of gentrification is crazy. LT was T1 2 years ago and now is 9% less economically disadvantaged than Watkins, which I think lost T1 status like 3-4 years before that.)

JO's efforts to increase IB population and have them stick has ben hampered by the presence of Two Rivers 4th Street. If you have ever walked that area between H and TR in the morning you see just how many IB JOW families are walking in their TR shirts to TR. My friends at TR tell me it feels in some grades like a neighborhood school. If even 1/2 of those students went to JOW then it would be closer where LT is. That issue is exacerbated by the fact that IB JOW means IB for SH so those families can have the benefit of TR in ES and then decide whether they want to head down H to the new TR MS.

(To be clear, this is not a shot at TR or charter schools or an argument for why charters are destroying DCPS. TR exists because DCPS failed for years to provide what families desired.)

I think this is right. I think LT would also be even farther along if it weren't for 2R, CHML and SWS, the latter two of which are both IB for LT. I think LT has stopped losing many kids to 2R (in fact, during the pandemic, we gained at least 3 2R families that I know of) and CHML (the swing space really did them in), but obviously still loses kids to SWS.

I agree. I think the reason LT changed so fast was because there were UMC IB students, they were just choosing those other schools. Once that changed and they had velocity there was a ready made IB population. I think the IB demo of JOW is similar. The hope is that if they can get traction it will accelerate quickly for the same reasons. Of course, SWS and CHML's brand spanking new buildings won't help JOW. (Don't get me started on DCPS prioritizing these schools at the expense of JOW's much needed upgrade.)

LT change so fast? When we bought an in-boundary house in 2006, parents in the neighborhood were lobbying DCPS like mad to get rid of a principal who was deeply hostile to high SES/white families who wanted to use the school. They succeeded, then we got Cobbs for 8 years, who was almost as hostile. High SES families often went with LT for the early childhood years, and maybe K, then moved on once they could lottery into Brent, Maury, SWS, even elementary programs in NW. Few high SES families could take Cobbs past K, meaning that LT's IB % dropped during those years. Then there was the long phase where no principal lasted more than 2 years. I feel like LT's "fast improvement" has taken more than 15 years. If you think the school caught on like wildfire with the in-boundary population, you can't have been on the Station Park area scene all that long...

I think the idea is that, as you describe, it didn't change at all (or even moved backwards) for quite a bit. You skipped over the period where the change actually started, Principal Smith after Cobbs (there may have been a one year interim in between?). Post-Smith's 4 year stint, the school has been through a rotation of 1 year/not even 1 year principals, but it hasn't resulted in IB flight since the school had made it far enough along for folks to stick it out. Now I think that period looks to be over with Principal Miller getting made permanent (she is the current interim), who I think/hope will be a long-term/stable solution for the school.

[Anonymous]

the school clearly changed incrementally. what seemingly caught up and changed overnight is the wider overall area impression of the school.

[Anonymous]

School demographic change always lags neighborhood change. I think Jefferson might be interesting over the next 5-10 years. The Wharf only opened 4 years ago this fall. While the old Brent neighbors might have been different, Brent is probably at this stage too wealthy and "gentrified" to become a serious feeder. But I could potentially see kids from the other 3 schools starting to attend in reasonably large numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so why isn't Jefferson a lot more popular with UMC in-boundary families and families with children in the several feeder elementary schools? Mainly a question of poor public relations?

At a Jefferson open house I attended this spring, admins were more than a little cagey about what sort of "honors classes" were offered and how students tested into these classes. I couldn't get a straight answer out of them, couldn't make sense of how the placement system worked. By contrast, at Stuart Hobson, I was told exactly how students were evaluated for/admitted to honors English and math classes. I was also told that there weren't any honors science or social studies classes, or any planned.

You answered your own question, because there are charters that actually have honors classes and have better cohorts

This isn't hard folks everyone is trying to trade up to get into the best slot for their kids period.

That's questionable. Latin doesn't have "honors" classes. Neither does BASIS. Both may have high expectations but they don't track. BASIS will allow advanced math placements and provide AP opportunities, sometimes way earlier than advisable. Latin has resisted math tracking for years until finally relenting.

And Stuart Hobson "honors" ELA has been more 'honors for all' during the pandemic. Will remain to see how it's handled moving forward. There's more math tracking available.

Straight up folks want charters over Jefferson and SH that's just the way it is and has been for over a decade. Will that eventually change some day who knows. I do agree there are options for high school. No one in their right mind wants their kids at Eastern

The HS "options" are not what you think. There are not enough high quality seats. If you don't live IB for Wilson and don't want to face uncertainty of top application schools your options are no better than MS

[Anonymous]

Agree with PP above. More public-school parents EotP are jumping on the Latin and Basis 5th grade trains, and on the 6th grade DCI train, mainly because stand-alone DC public high schools are no longer a safe bet, even for the highest-performing 8th graders.

Walls' admissions system in disarray, Wilson has gone downhill due to honors-for-all and worsening crowding, McKinley Tech admits too many poorly prepared students, Banneker's appeal isn't widening much despite the flashy new building, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:School demographic change always lags neighborhood change. I think Jefferson might be interesting over the next 5-10 years. The Wharf only opened 4 years ago this fall. While the old Brent neighbors might have been different, Brent is probably at this stage too wealthy and "gentrified" to become a serious feeder. But I could potentially see kids from the other 3 schools starting to attend in reasonably large numbers.

The fallacy that demographics alone can create a good school is often heard on Hill playgrounds. It takes that, plus buy-in from administration to offer honors classes and hire teachers capable of teaching them. Demographics alone can take a school further in ES than in MS and HS, and parents need to remember this. You may have “flipped” your local ES by encouraging your neighbors to enroll but it is not so simple as the kids get older. That said, I truly believe that this attitude is also the reason that the performance of white ES students on the hill on standardized tests lags behind the same demographic in other school districts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree with PP above. More public-school parents EotP are jumping on the Latin and Basis 5th grade trains, and on the 6th grade DCI train, mainly because stand-alone DC public high schools are no longer a safe bet, even for the highest-performing 8th graders.

Walls' admissions system in disarray, Wilson has gone downhill due to honors-for-all and worsening crowding, McKinley Tech admits too many poorly prepared students, Banneker's appeal isn't widening much despite the flashy new building, etc.

This to a tee and yes majority EOTP parents, not just Capitol Hill, who want to stay in the city and not have to move to the burbs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:School demographic change always lags neighborhood change. I think Jefferson might be interesting over the next 5-10 years. The Wharf only opened 4 years ago this fall. While the old Brent neighbors might have been different, Brent is probably at this stage too wealthy and "gentrified" to become a serious feeder. But I could potentially see kids from the other 3 schools starting to attend in reasonably large numbers.

The fallacy that demographics alone can create a good school is often heard on Hill playgrounds. It takes that, plus buy-in from administration to offer honors classes and hire teachers capable of teaching them. Demographics alone can take a school further in ES than in MS and HS, and parents need to remember this. You may have “flipped” your local ES by encouraging your neighbors to enroll but it is not so simple as the kids get older. That said, I truly believe that this attitude is also the reason that the performance of white ES students on the hill on standardized tests lags behind the same demographic in other school districts.

+1. Very true. It’s not just demographics and especially in MS and HS.

The expectations are so low in DC. The hope for a grade level majority is not good enough. No G & T or tracking in elementary, no multiple level courses for every subject offered in MS and HS. It’s not surprising that the performance of kids in the city lag those of our neighbors. The higher performing kids are not challenged to reach their full potential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2015 data. LOL.

Brent is less than 70% IB now, so I actually think it’s likely correct to say that 5th grade has very few IBers given that PK is obviously fully IB and the lower grades have very few OOBs students.

Most of the OOB students at Brent live on Capitol Hill, many just a few blocks outside the school's boundary. BS that the 5th grade has very few IBers this year. It's mostly IBers again. It is correct to say that there are hardly any poor kids left at Brent, around 5% at risk.

For Brent to be less than 70% IB, it is nearly mathematically impossible for it to be the case that 5th grade in “mostly” IB students given the demographics of the younger grades.

Huh? This year's 5th grade at Brent is definitely mostly in boundary students. I know because I have a child in 5th grade. My child started at Brent with most of these kids, in the early childhood years, which were 100% in boundary.

What's happening is that more OOB seats are opening in the lower grades with each passing year mainly because in boundary 3-bedroom houses have become so pricey, and inventory so low, that fewer young families are moving into the Brent district with every passing year.

I was gonna call B.S. because conventional wisdom (read: DCUM) says that isn't so. I figured before I replied maybe I should check the published data. Darned if what you said doesn't track with the data. They have been making WL offers in elementary grades for a number of years. Now there is no way to know for sure how many seats they needed to fill based on the WL offers made, but it stands to reason that Brent didn't have to make 50 WL offers to fill only one spot for K. And any WL offers in K+ are OOB kids. Interestingly, over the past few years Maury has gone to the WL less frequently and for fewer WL kids than has Brent. Or even Ludlow for that matter.

Your theory about housing (scarcity, I agree, is the issue) seems logical to me. I think also that as SH has improved and more IB feeder kids stay, combined with Latin and Basis as MS and HS options, combined with application schools with enhanced reputations, that parents with perspective beyond just needs of 3 or 4 year olds might be thinking longer term and making school decisions with a longer time horizon than just "I need to be IB for Brent".

Very interesting trend and data. Thanks for pointing out and making me re-think what I "knew" from reading DCUM common wisdom.

I think its not because of housing within Brent, but because other schools, like LT, have become just as attractive. More housing/schools to pick from, not less.

I have actually long thought that the LT IB is the most desirable on the Hill location-wise, especially if you take into account price. As H St has exploded, I think the cute residential area between it & Stanton Park is basically the ideal spot to live on the Hill. So the crazy rate of gentrification there doesn't surprise me at all. (And check the stats, the rate of gentrification is crazy. LT was T1 2 years ago and now is 9% less economically disadvantaged than Watkins, which I think lost T1 status like 3-4 years before that.)

JO's efforts to increase IB population and have them stick has ben hampered by the presence of Two Rivers 4th Street. If you have ever walked that area between H and TR in the morning you see just how many IB JOW families are walking in their TR shirts to TR. My friends at TR tell me it feels in some grades like a neighborhood school. If even 1/2 of those students went to JOW then it would be closer where LT is. That issue is exacerbated by the fact that IB JOW means IB for SH so those families can have the benefit of TR in ES and then decide whether they want to head down H to the new TR MS.

(To be clear, this is not a shot at TR or charter schools or an argument for why charters are destroying DCPS. TR exists because DCPS failed for years to provide what families desired.)

I think this is right. I think LT would also be even farther along if it weren't for 2R, CHML and SWS, the latter two of which are both IB for LT. I think LT has stopped losing many kids to 2R (in fact, during the pandemic, we gained at least 3 2R families that I know of) and CHML (the swing space really did them in), but obviously still loses kids to SWS.

I agree. I think the reason LT changed so fast was because there were UMC IB students, they were just choosing those other schools. Once that changed and they had velocity there was a ready made IB population. I think the IB demo of JOW is similar. The hope is that if they can get traction it will accelerate quickly for the same reasons. Of course, SWS and CHML's brand spanking new buildings won't help JOW. (Don't get me started on DCPS prioritizing these schools at the expense of JOW's much needed upgrade.)

JO Wilson is in line for modernization too so that make little sense. There was certainly nothing done at JOW expense. Over the past decade SWS has been in trailers twice and was strung along on modernization the entire time.

Swing space is a mixed bag. Be careful what you wish for and that goes double if your kid is in grades 3-5

Modernization is quite literally a zero sum game. DCPS modernizes one area school at a time and the modernized schools use the same swing space. By definition if another school is being modernized now another needs to wait. If there are 3 schools ahead of yours on the list then you will wait an entire ES term (8 years) for your school to be modernized. How self interested and myopic do you have to be to tell someone they shouldn't feel like they got short shrift because. "Don't worry, your school is in budget to be modernized in a 10 years." I get that you wanted your school modernized. I do too.