Banneker versus School Without Walls

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do, actually. I've volunteered at Banneker over a four-year period, at the invitation of science teachers I met through a STEM mentoring organization I'm involved with.

Sorry, but the SAT scores and AP scores coming out of Banneker speak for themselves.

If the average MATH SAT score really is in the high 400s, at least half of the students don't have a firm grasp of algebra or geometry, let alone trig and calc. They also lack the requisite vocabulary and analytical skills to handle elite college-level humanities studies. Wish things were different.

You volunteer at the school and turn around and trash the teaching?!

When you volunteer somewhere, you gain a little insight into how the place works. Over time, this New Yorker got fed up with lack of ambition for Banneker's upper echelon academically on the part of many adults in the building, at least where STEM education goes. The tyranny of low expectations wasn't hard to identify. Very different feel than Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Hunter College MS/HS, where I've also volunteered. Lots of happy talk and drill at Banneker, but not enough joy of learning, healthy competition within the peer group, serious extra-curriculars, and aiming high to crack competitive colleges. It's more of a culture of "any 4-year program will do." I left unconvinced that admins and teachers do their utmost to impress the critical importance of scoring high on standardized tests on students. The concept clearly isn't integral to the school culture.

As the parent of a current student, I hope they found better volunteers this year.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I think it’s terrible that you volunteer and then turn around and bad mouth the students and school.

DP. It seems like you're upset that PP is pointing out a real weakness of the school. It seems to me that Banneker should recognize and address this glaring weakness in order to better serve students. How is pointing that out "bad mouthing the students and school"?

My kid's SAT went up 300 points with tutoring. I'm sure that many kids at Banneker could have similar improvements, which would dramatically increase their college choices and merit aid awards. How is that bad?

The 80 or students that graduated last year had $50 million in aid, I think they’re doing fine.

So you are actually claiming that Banneker students received on average $625k in aid, or approximately twice the 4 year cost of the most expensive private schools? You seem to lack basic math skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do, actually. I've volunteered at Banneker over a four-year period, at the invitation of science teachers I met through a STEM mentoring organization I'm involved with.

Sorry, but the SAT scores and AP scores coming out of Banneker speak for themselves.

If the average MATH SAT score really is in the high 400s, at least half of the students don't have a firm grasp of algebra or geometry, let alone trig and calc. They also lack the requisite vocabulary and analytical skills to handle elite college-level humanities studies. Wish things were different.

You volunteer at the school and turn around and trash the teaching?!

When you volunteer somewhere, you gain a little insight into how the place works. Over time, this New Yorker got fed up with lack of ambition for Banneker's upper echelon academically on the part of many adults in the building, at least where STEM education goes. The tyranny of low expectations wasn't hard to identify. Very different feel than Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Hunter College MS/HS, where I've also volunteered. Lots of happy talk and drill at Banneker, but not enough joy of learning, healthy competition within the peer group, serious extra-curriculars, and aiming high to crack competitive colleges. It's more of a culture of "any 4-year program will do." I left unconvinced that admins and teachers do their utmost to impress the critical importance of scoring high on standardized tests on students. The concept clearly isn't integral to the school culture.

As the parent of a current student, I hope they found better volunteers this year.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I think it’s terrible that you volunteer and then turn around and bad mouth the students and school.

DP. It seems like you're upset that PP is pointing out a real weakness of the school. It seems to me that Banneker should recognize and address this glaring weakness in order to better serve students. How is pointing that out "bad mouthing the students and school"?

My kid's SAT went up 300 points with tutoring. I'm sure that many kids at Banneker could have similar improvements, which would dramatically increase their college choices and merit aid awards. How is that bad?

The 80 or students that graduated last year had $50 million in aid, I think they’re doing fine.

So you are actually claiming that Banneker students received on average $625k in aid, or approximately twice the 4 year cost of the most expensive private schools? You seem to lack basic math skills.

NP, but those figures account for all aid offered, not just accepted. So if someone gets $100k at three separate schools and only goes to one, then they're counted as $300k not $100k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do, actually. I've volunteered at Banneker over a four-year period, at the invitation of science teachers I met through a STEM mentoring organization I'm involved with.

Sorry, but the SAT scores and AP scores coming out of Banneker speak for themselves.

If the average MATH SAT score really is in the high 400s, at least half of the students don't have a firm grasp of algebra or geometry, let alone trig and calc. They also lack the requisite vocabulary and analytical skills to handle elite college-level humanities studies. Wish things were different.

You volunteer at the school and turn around and trash the teaching?!

When you volunteer somewhere, you gain a little insight into how the place works. Over time, this New Yorker got fed up with lack of ambition for Banneker's upper echelon academically on the part of many adults in the building, at least where STEM education goes. The tyranny of low expectations wasn't hard to identify. Very different feel than Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Hunter College MS/HS, where I've also volunteered. Lots of happy talk and drill at Banneker, but not enough joy of learning, healthy competition within the peer group, serious extra-curriculars, and aiming high to crack competitive colleges. It's more of a culture of "any 4-year program will do." I left unconvinced that admins and teachers do their utmost to impress the critical importance of scoring high on standardized tests on students. The concept clearly isn't integral to the school culture.

As the parent of a current student, I hope they found better volunteers this year.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I think it’s terrible that you volunteer and then turn around and bad mouth the students and school.

DP. It seems like you're upset that PP is pointing out a real weakness of the school. It seems to me that Banneker should recognize and address this glaring weakness in order to better serve students. How is pointing that out "bad mouthing the students and school"?

My kid's SAT went up 300 points with tutoring. I'm sure that many kids at Banneker could have similar improvements, which would dramatically increase their college choices and merit aid awards. How is that bad?

The 80 or students that graduated last year had $50 million in aid, I think they’re doing fine.

So you are actually claiming that Banneker students received on average $625k in aid, or approximately twice the 4 year cost of the most expensive private schools? You seem to lack basic math skills.

I don’t lack math skills. You just lack first hand knowledge of Banneker. But PP above explained it to you (all aid offered vs aid accepted).

[Anonymous]

I'm not impressed with these claims that Banneker students collectively win tens of millions of dollars in financial aid from colleges annually. That's par for the course, because most of them are low SES applying to expensive private colleges with big endowments and financial aid budgets. Admitted students automatically qualify for financial aid at such colleges if their families can't pay full fare, and most colleges are eager to attract some low SES urban minority students, even if their SAT and AP scores aren't competitive. What might impress me would be a list of selective colleges Banneker students attend and graduate from in 4 or 5 years.

[Anonymous]

What would impress me is high SAT and AP scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do, actually. I've volunteered at Banneker over a four-year period, at the invitation of science teachers I met through a STEM mentoring organization I'm involved with.

Sorry, but the SAT scores and AP scores coming out of Banneker speak for themselves.

If the average MATH SAT score really is in the high 400s, at least half of the students don't have a firm grasp of algebra or geometry, let alone trig and calc. They also lack the requisite vocabulary and analytical skills to handle elite college-level humanities studies. Wish things were different.

You volunteer at the school and turn around and trash the teaching?!

When you volunteer somewhere, you gain a little insight into how the place works. Over time, this New Yorker got fed up with lack of ambition for Banneker's upper echelon academically on the part of many adults in the building, at least where STEM education goes. The tyranny of low expectations wasn't hard to identify. Very different feel than Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Hunter College MS/HS, where I've also volunteered. Lots of happy talk and drill at Banneker, but not enough joy of learning, healthy competition within the peer group, serious extra-curriculars, and aiming high to crack competitive colleges. It's more of a culture of "any 4-year program will do." I left unconvinced that admins and teachers do their utmost to impress the critical importance of scoring high on standardized tests on students. The concept clearly isn't integral to the school culture.

As the parent of a current student, I hope they found better volunteers this year.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I think it’s terrible that you volunteer and then turn around and bad mouth the students and school.

DP. It seems like you're upset that PP is pointing out a real weakness of the school. It seems to me that Banneker should recognize and address this glaring weakness in order to better serve students. How is pointing that out "bad mouthing the students and school"?

My kid's SAT went up 300 points with tutoring. I'm sure that many kids at Banneker could have similar improvements, which would dramatically increase their college choices and merit aid awards. How is that bad?

The 80 or students that graduated last year had $50 million in aid, I think they’re doing fine.

So you are actually claiming that Banneker students received on average $625k in aid, or approximately twice the 4 year cost of the most expensive private schools? You seem to lack basic math skills.

I don’t lack math skills. You just lack first hand knowledge of Banneker. But PP above explained it to you (all aid offered vs aid accepted).

I DO lack first hand knowledge of Banneker. My kid’s high school choice was between Wilson, Walls and McKinley. Ended up at Wilson for sports.

That said, he wouldn’t have gotten into the college he’s attending if his SATs hadn’t improved. Do you doubt that Banneker kids would have an enormously greater range of options if their SATs were higher? That doesn’t make sense to me. Or are you arguing that schools that will take a kid with a 950 SAT are good enough for all Banneker kids?

What’s the argument against trying to improve Banneker kids’ scores? Do you believe it’s too difficult? Recent changes to the SAT have exacerbated it’s pro-wealth, pro-white bias, but I believe that kids of color CAN do well on the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do, actually. I've volunteered at Banneker over a four-year period, at the invitation of science teachers I met through a STEM mentoring organization I'm involved with.

Sorry, but the SAT scores and AP scores coming out of Banneker speak for themselves.

If the average MATH SAT score really is in the high 400s, at least half of the students don't have a firm grasp of algebra or geometry, let alone trig and calc. They also lack the requisite vocabulary and analytical skills to handle elite college-level humanities studies. Wish things were different.

You volunteer at the school and turn around and trash the teaching?!

When you volunteer somewhere, you gain a little insight into how the place works. Over time, this New Yorker got fed up with lack of ambition for Banneker's upper echelon academically on the part of many adults in the building, at least where STEM education goes. The tyranny of low expectations wasn't hard to identify. Very different feel than Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Hunter College MS/HS, where I've also volunteered. Lots of happy talk and drill at Banneker, but not enough joy of learning, healthy competition within the peer group, serious extra-curriculars, and aiming high to crack competitive colleges. It's more of a culture of "any 4-year program will do." I left unconvinced that admins and teachers do their utmost to impress the critical importance of scoring high on standardized tests on students. The concept clearly isn't integral to the school culture.

As the parent of a current student, I hope they found better volunteers this year.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I think it’s terrible that you volunteer and then turn around and bad mouth the students and school.

DP. It seems like you're upset that PP is pointing out a real weakness of the school. It seems to me that Banneker should recognize and address this glaring weakness in order to better serve students. How is pointing that out "bad mouthing the students and school"?

My kid's SAT went up 300 points with tutoring. I'm sure that many kids at Banneker could have similar improvements, which would dramatically increase their college choices and merit aid awards. How is that bad?

The 80 or students that graduated last year had $50 million in aid, I think they’re doing fine.

So you are actually claiming that Banneker students received on average $625k in aid, or approximately twice the 4 year cost of the most expensive private schools? You seem to lack basic math skills.

I don’t lack math skills. You just lack first hand knowledge of Banneker. But PP above explained it to you (all aid offered vs aid accepted).

I DO lack first hand knowledge of Banneker. My kid’s high school choice was between Wilson, Walls and McKinley. Ended up at Wilson for sports.

That said, he wouldn’t have gotten into the college he’s attending if his SATs hadn’t improved. Do you doubt that Banneker kids would have an enormously greater range of options if their SATs were higher? That doesn’t make sense to me. Or are you arguing that schools that will take a kid with a 950 SAT are good enough for all Banneker kids?

What’s the argument against trying to improve Banneker kids’ scores? Do you believe it’s too difficult? Recent changes to the SAT have exacerbated it’s pro-wealth, pro-white bias, but I believe that kids of color CAN do well on the test.

I’m not arguing against them doing better on SATs. I would argue we need to scrap standardized college exams because it’s a waste of time. SATs are dumb. It’s one factor among others in evaluating a student. But truly, you only learn how a student does on standardized tests. They don’t reflect knowledge or potential, no matter what the college board argues. I became anti-standardized tests in graduate school. Foreign students must take the TOEFL (English language exam) to attend American universities. Every year GTA were assigned to a few grad student who had perfect (or close to perfect) scores. Only to have these students arrive on campus with zero abilities to speak or write English. Standardized tests are a game! Do I want my kid to waste learning time on how to take them? No, not really. But clearly there are those who only judge a school on those tests.

[Anonymous]

The new TOEFL emphasizes speaking and comprehensive more than previous versions did, while the 2019 incarnation of the SAT emphasizes chart and graph reading, bringing it more up to date. Standardized tests given by the College Board tend to improve over time.

The problem with rejecting the SAT out of hand as a waste of time, PP, is that, as has been noted, it's just not a difficult test for high school students who are remotely prepared to handle any kind of college rigor. If a HS junior or senior can't score at least in the 500s on the SATs for both reading and math after a couple of tries, s/he pretty clearly isn't prepared to enroll in any type of credible BA program anywhere.

If the new SAT was too difficult for the college-bound, my 7th grader, who isn't a top student at his DCPS middle school, couldn't possibly have scored more than 600 in both reading and math. He did no test prep beyond a few hours on Khan Academy SAT prep videos. He had to take the SAT to meet a cut-off to attend an academic summer camp.

There's just no denying that Banneker's weak SAT scores are indicative that something is very wrong with the program, and the middle and elementary schools feeding into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The new TOEFL emphasizes speaking and comprehensive more than previous versions did, while the 2019 incarnation of the SAT emphasizes chart and graph reading, bringing it more up to date. Standardized tests given by the College Board tend to improve over time.

The problem with rejecting the SAT out of hand as a waste of time, PP, is that, as has been noted, it's just not a difficult test for high school students who are remotely prepared to handle any kind of college rigor. If a HS junior or senior can't score at least in the 500s on the SATs for both reading and math after a couple of tries, s/he pretty clearly isn't prepared to enroll in any type of credible BA program anywhere.

If the new SAT was too difficult for the college-bound, my 7th grader, who isn't a top student at his DCPS middle school, couldn't possibly have scored more than 600 in both reading and math. He did no test prep beyond a few hours on Khan Academy SAT prep videos. He had to take the SAT to meet a cut-off to attend an academic summer camp.

There's just no denying that Banneker's weak SAT scores are indicative that something is very wrong with the program, and the middle and elementary schools feeding into it.

You sound like you do PR for the College Board. I bombed my SATs (and GREs) but graduated college with honors. Universities are moving away from requiring them. I applaud that move! Complete waste of time and money.

[Anonymous]

OK, so have you opted your kid(s) our of the PARCC in DCPS? I do so every year, because PARCC is a poorly written, unnecessarily lengthy, widely discredited corporate 10-hour test given to 8 year-olds, crafted and graded by a British company vs. an American one.

The SAT has been around since 1926, helping tens of millions of low and moderate-income students prove their value to elite colleges through four or five generations. You can throw the baby out with the bathwater because Banneker students don't get the prep to collectively shine on the SAT, or you can see the forest for the trees.

Test optional doesn't mean that the SAT, or ACT, has been rejected by academe. It means a decent score can only enhance an application. I don't know of any colleges that won't permit an applicant to submit a favorable SAT score with an application, do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, so have you opted your kid(s) our of the PARCC in DCPS? I do so every year, because PARCC is a poorly written, unnecessarily lengthy, widely discredited corporate 10-hour test given to 8 year-olds, crafted and graded by a British company vs. an American one.

The SAT has been around since 1926, helping tens of millions of low and moderate-income students prove their value to elite colleges through four or five generations. You can throw the baby out with the bathwater because Banneker students don't get the prep to collectively shine on the SAT, or you can see the forest for the trees.

Test optional doesn't mean that the SAT, or ACT, has been rejected by academe. It means a decent score can only enhance an application. I don't know of any colleges that won't permit an applicant to submit a favorable SAT score with an application, do you?

Seriously, you sound like guerrilla marketer at the College Board.

[Anonymous]

What is the name of this academic camp that requires an SAT score for middle school students?

[Anonymous]

Johns Hopkins CTY, they've required SAT scores from 7th-10th grader participants for many years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so have you opted your kid(s) our of the PARCC in DCPS? I do so every year, because PARCC is a poorly written, unnecessarily lengthy, widely discredited corporate 10-hour test given to 8 year-olds, crafted and graded by a British company vs. an American one.

The SAT has been around since 1926, helping tens of millions of low and moderate-income students prove their value to elite colleges through four or five generations. You can throw the baby out with the bathwater because Banneker students don't get the prep to collectively shine on the SAT, or you can see the forest for the trees.

Test optional doesn't mean that the SAT, or ACT, has been rejected by academe. It means a decent score can only enhance an application. I don't know of any colleges that won't permit an applicant to submit a favorable SAT score with an application, do you?

Seriously, you sound like guerrilla marketer at the College Board.

No, just somebody who attended an Ivy on a full Pell Grant coming from a rural high school ranked in the bottom third in my state. Teachers used to tell us that scoring high on standardized tests was the only possible way we could compete with better-off students attending superior high schools. My several best friends growing up also went to Ivies. Their parents were, and are, farmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so have you opted your kid(s) our of the PARCC in DCPS? I do so every year, because PARCC is a poorly written, unnecessarily lengthy, widely discredited corporate 10-hour test given to 8 year-olds, crafted and graded by a British company vs. an American one.

The SAT has been around since 1926, helping tens of millions of low and moderate-income students prove their value to elite colleges through four or five generations. You can throw the baby out with the bathwater because Banneker students don't get the prep to collectively shine on the SAT, or you can see the forest for the trees.

Test optional doesn't mean that the SAT, or ACT, has been rejected by academe. It means a decent score can only enhance an application. I don't know of any colleges that won't permit an applicant to submit a favorable SAT score with an application, do you?

Seriously, you sound like guerrilla marketer at the College Board.

No, just somebody who attended an Ivy on a full Pell Grant coming from a rural high school ranked in the bottom third in my state. Teachers used to tell us that scoring high on standardized tests was the only possible way we could compete with better-off students attending superior high schools. My several best friends growing up also went to Ivies. Their parents were, and are, farmers.

Oh maybe that’s where we differ. I don’t care if my kids go to an Ivy, which is very important to some people and likely they place value in standardized test scores. We are in different circles on the Venn diagram of life.