Do you know a kid who was screwed in the college process in last few years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We know one 1600 SAT kid who actually have good ECs, great grades, etc...but bragged to his classmates that he completed like 7 applications to top 10 schools all in one night just before the deadline.

Guess what...rejected at all. If you speak to the parents, their revisionist history is their kid was aggrieved and "less than" kids at the school were accepted.

The kids know he probably submitted POS applications.

Exactly! And there is no way a kid would actually want to attend 7 T10 schools, as they are all so different.

If you don't put in the effort, you don't have a real chance. And even if you do, go in knowing they are all highly rejective schools, even more so for certain majors (yes, even if not direct admit, if all your kid's EC revolve around Robotics/STEM/etc, they likely are not ending up as an English and art history major and the schools know that). So pick your reaches and spend time with targeted applications, but more importantly, pick excellent Targets and safeties. And pick some targets that are "more likely"---so no 21% acceptance rates and your kid at 40%==Pick a few with 30-40%+ acceptance rates where your kid is 75%+ and then show interest. Know if the schools do interviews, if they do, attempt to sign up for one and that's another 10-15 mins to highlight why you belong there. My high stats kid got into all their Targets and Safeties, and WL at two reaches, first year abroad at NEU and ultimately rejected at a T10 (ED1 Deferred then rejected). So exactly what you would expect to happen.
But since they picked great targets and safeties, they had many schools to choose from, and their top safety was such a great school, they kept it in the final 3 choices April of senior year.

I'd also say - study the data. Really really well. There is so much more than meets the eye.

Agree on STEM majors - classify down = if you think your 4.0/1600 CS/applied math/engineering major is competitive for REA at Harvard. They aren't. Look at ED at CMU. And ED2 a level down.

They may not get accepted...but hard to understand how they are not competitive.

They are competitive, but you must realize that so are 75%+ of the applicants, and 95% of the applicants will be rejected. So logically (simple stats), many highly qualified applicants will be rejected.
And applying to more schools doesn't change it. Each one is an individual event.

I get that...but competitive means you are at least through the first cut of kids with significantly lower scores, grades, etc.

I can't imagine telling a kid with those stats (and not knowing all the other parts of the application) to not apply to Harvard or MIT or wherever because "they aren't competitive". Sure, they are still likely to get rejected...but it won't be because the school didn't think you have the mental chops.

But they are wasting their REA if unhooked. Apply RD to Harvard and MIT, if you have to.
A STEM kid MUST be strategic early - otherwise, you've ruined your chances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m flabbergasted that anyone believes there is a committee room with AOs dutifully discussing candidates, carefully pouring over applications, hand selecting those golden nuggets whose stories bring warmth to their hearts. Parents of kids that got in thinking their kids crafted a cohesive story that resonated above all others while parents of kids who didn’t get in bemoan not focusing on a different angle in the essay.

People this is all being done with enrollment management software, consultants, and temporary workers checking off boxes in a rubric while watching White Lotus or YouTube videos of dancing pandas. AI is now being used in some software and I guarantee it will increase fast. Some enrollment management software packages even target admits before they apply grabbing data you didn’t think was part of the equation.

Universities are not transparent about this because they understand how it would be received.

You are responding in the middle of the night - where are you? California? Abroad?

My two cents: Read a bit more about the process directly from selective private top colleges (the public schools absolutely do some of this EM stuff you mention as a gating item). There are a few former T10 AO on Reddit that I follow (I've posted their comments above and elsewhere on this site)....they have described the AO review process in detail. Mind you, it's limited to selective schools. So if you are talking Northeastern or something, then yes, your process is 100% correct.

Interestingly, this past fall, we heard something new from our private CCO - whether or not a human actually reads your kid's application is determined by your high school. If it's a large non-feeder public school, it's an AI/auto filter, much as you describe. We were told all of the applications from our high school will be read by a human (and not a temp reader, but the regional rep who comes to our high school) at T25 and most SLACs..... It's a horrible, unfair part of this process. People don't talk about this enough, but there are differences out of the gate before your application is even reviewed. Maybe someone should do a post on that.

I imagine with more focus on full pay this bifurcation only becomes a more acute divide.

wow, interesting. i've never heard about this.

I have heard about this. Happens all the time in private schools. Parents are clueless unless someone figured it out and posts about it.

What happens all the time in private schools?

[Anonymous]

If your private school told you that every application from their school is read by a human and detours the AI filters at T25 schools…well then I have a bridge to sell you. Also AI isn’t only used as a gate keeper for the first pass. This is another smokescreen to make people think oh it’s just weeding out the obvious unqualified students, my kid is being given thoughtful consideration.

Look AI isn’t all bad. It’s probably far better than readers and even AO staff in consistently applying criteria, filtering out personal bias, and not having one batch get less review because the reader felt off or was having a bad day. Readers are given a list of criteria to follow, so is AI. AI can and does go much further.

What I think is scary is that these systems are tying more data together to be predictive. As an applicant my own performance is not solely driving my score but the performance of prior students with matching attributes.Pattern predictive scoring ‘feels’ unfair because it’s correlation not causation.

Keywords are critical and gamification will emerge to nail the correct keywords. Keywords can also be used to red flag applications. Can you imagine the type of cheats that will emerge if someone hacks these systems? Sure this could have happened in the past with sending out scoring sheets to hundreds of temp readers but at the scale of what is starting to be put in place it’s more of a target.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your private school told you that every application from their school is read by a human and detours the AI filters at T25 schools…well then I have a bridge to sell you. Also AI isn’t only used as a gate keeper for the first pass. This is another smokescreen to make people think oh it’s just weeding out the obvious unqualified students, my kid is being given thoughtful consideration.

Look AI isn’t all bad. It’s probably far better than readers and even AO staff in consistently applying criteria, filtering out personal bias, and not having one batch get less review because the reader felt off or was having a bad day. Readers are given a list of criteria to follow, so is AI. AI can and does go much further.

What I think is scary is that these systems are tying more data together to be predictive. As an applicant my own performance is not solely driving my score but the performance of prior students with matching attributes.Pattern predictive scoring ‘feels’ unfair because it’s correlation not causation.

Keywords are critical and gamification will emerge to nail the correct keywords. Keywords can also be used to red flag applications. Can you imagine the type of cheats that will emerge if someone hacks these systems? Sure this could have happened in the past with sending out scoring sheets to hundreds of temp readers but at the scale of what is starting to be put in place it’s more of a target.

NP. It's surprising that algorithm leak hasn't already happened. Too many people in enrollment management must know but are subject to contractual nondisclosure/noncompete types of clauses or clauses about proprietary trade secrets.

I think the algorithms may be more in use at the end of the process, during the shaping of the class, to arrive at the correct financial aid numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nope. Ha Ha🤣

My kid was a top student, top grades, magnet rigor, cracked SAT, very good EC, research work, tons of accolades etc. Doing CS in flagship public university for free. Getting top internships and opportunities. Earning money and growing investment portfolio.

Not going to the top private school for full pay has saved us 400K which has enriched his inheritance significantly. At worst, he does not have to look after us for retirement.

Getting into a prestigious college is not the end game.

This is the same route our DS took as well:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

Applied to Yale (legacy), Princeton, Penn, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, Uchicago. Waitlisted at Northwestern and Cornell and rejected at the rest.

He is at our state flagship, which he was actually happy with from the beginning of the process, thankfully.

We invested the 300K we saved for college which will have a dramatic impact on his financial future. He is thrilled! And he joked about hoping it happened because he is pretty sure the social life is going to be so much better and is convinced he can get a great education pretty much anywhere.

[Anonymous]

The smartest kids I know didn't seem to be as interested in playing the "top school" game, but their parents did. I think a lot of these schools have tarnished reputations as far as Gen Z is concerned. Hence the move south and to flagships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The smartest kids I know didn't seem to be as interested in playing the "top school" game, but their parents did. I think a lot of these schools have tarnished reputations as far as Gen Z is concerned. Hence the move south and to flagships.

These schools all had record application numbers this past year.

I guess it’s like the old line…nobody wants to go there anymore, it’s too popular.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think any kids get "screwed" in the college application process. What a peculiar way of looking at things.

If you are the #1 kid in your school, aiming for T10/T20, and you end up at the flagship or worse (and not for financial reasons), then yeah, I think you were screwed since kids ranked FAR below you got into the schools you were aiming for?
Maybe it was your application? Your major? Your story?

You didn't get screwed, you overestimated your competitiveness and planned poorly. That's on you.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. Ha Ha🤣

My kid was a top student, top grades, magnet rigor, cracked SAT, very good EC, research work, tons of accolades etc. Doing CS in flagship public university for free. Getting top internships and opportunities. Earning money and growing investment portfolio.

Not going to the top private school for full pay has saved us 400K which has enriched his inheritance significantly. At worst, he does not have to look after us for retirement.

Getting into a prestigious college is not the end game.

This is the same route our DS took as well:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

Applied to Yale (legacy), Princeton, Penn, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, Uchicago. Waitlisted at Northwestern and Cornell and rejected at the rest.

He is at our state flagship, which he was actually happy with from the beginning of the process, thankfully.

We invested the 300K we saved for college which will have a dramatic impact on his financial future. He is thrilled! And he joked about hoping it happened because he is pretty sure the social life is going to be so much better and is convinced he can get a great education pretty much anywhere.

What major? These results are surprising, unless STEM.
Public or private HS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. Ha Ha🤣

My kid was a top student, top grades, magnet rigor, cracked SAT, very good EC, research work, tons of accolades etc. Doing CS in flagship public university for free. Getting top internships and opportunities. Earning money and growing investment portfolio.

Not going to the top private school for full pay has saved us 400K which has enriched his inheritance significantly. At worst, he does not have to look after us for retirement.

Getting into a prestigious college is not the end game.

This is the same route our DS took as well:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

Applied to Yale (legacy), Princeton, Penn, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, Uchicago. Waitlisted at Northwestern and Cornell and rejected at the rest.

He is at our state flagship, which he was actually happy with from the beginning of the process, thankfully.

We invested the 300K we saved for college which will have a dramatic impact on his financial future. He is thrilled! And he joked about hoping it happened because he is pretty sure the social life is going to be so much better and is convinced he can get a great education pretty much anywhere.

What major? These results are surprising, unless STEM.
Public or private HS?

DP. I have a similar kid with similar results, for what it's worth. Not a STEM major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. Ha Ha🤣

My kid was a top student, top grades, magnet rigor, cracked SAT, very good EC, research work, tons of accolades etc. Doing CS in flagship public university for free. Getting top internships and opportunities. Earning money and growing investment portfolio.

Not going to the top private school for full pay has saved us 400K which has enriched his inheritance significantly. At worst, he does not have to look after us for retirement.

Getting into a prestigious college is not the end game.

This is the same route our DS took as well:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

Applied to Yale (legacy), Princeton, Penn, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, Uchicago. Waitlisted at Northwestern and Cornell and rejected at the rest.

He is at our state flagship, which he was actually happy with from the beginning of the process, thankfully.

We invested the 300K we saved for college which will have a dramatic impact on his financial future. He is thrilled! And he joked about hoping it happened because he is pretty sure the social life is going to be so much better and is convinced he can get a great education pretty much anywhere.

What major? These results are surprising, unless STEM.
Public or private HS?

DP. I have a similar kid with similar results, for what it's worth. Not a STEM major.

I think your HS matters a lot more than people think; along with the competition from your High School. And your ED choice or strategy as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. Ha Ha🤣

My kid was a top student, top grades, magnet rigor, cracked SAT, very good EC, research work, tons of accolades etc. Doing CS in flagship public university for free. Getting top internships and opportunities. Earning money and growing investment portfolio.

Not going to the top private school for full pay has saved us 400K which has enriched his inheritance significantly. At worst, he does not have to look after us for retirement.

Getting into a prestigious college is not the end game.

This is the same route our DS took as well:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

Applied to Yale (legacy), Princeton, Penn, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, Uchicago. Waitlisted at Northwestern and Cornell and rejected at the rest.

He is at our state flagship, which he was actually happy with from the beginning of the process, thankfully.

We invested the 300K we saved for college which will have a dramatic impact on his financial future. He is thrilled! And he joked about hoping it happened because he is pretty sure the social life is going to be so much better and is convinced he can get a great education pretty much anywhere.

What major? These results are surprising, unless STEM.
Public or private HS?

Agree, surprising if private HS. If public, I get it, regardless of major.

[Anonymous]

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

How does that work? They don't let you take AP classes freshman year (at least I think they don't in FCPS). And some APs have prerequisites that are hard to get out of the way before sophomore year. Did he take 6 APs each year in junior and senior year, then somehow two others in sophomore year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We know one 1600 SAT kid who actually have good ECs, great grades, etc...but bragged to his classmates that he completed like 7 applications to top 10 schools all in one night just before the deadline.

Guess what...rejected at all. If you speak to the parents, their revisionist history is their kid was aggrieved and "less than" kids at the school were accepted.

The kids know he probably submitted POS applications.

Exactly! And there is no way a kid would actually want to attend 7 T10 schools, as they are all so different.

If you don't put in the effort, you don't have a real chance. And even if you do, go in knowing they are all highly rejective schools, even more so for certain majors (yes, even if not direct admit, if all your kid's EC revolve around Robotics/STEM/etc, they likely are not ending up as an English and art history major and the schools know that). So pick your reaches and spend time with targeted applications, but more importantly, pick excellent Targets and safeties. And pick some targets that are "more likely"---so no 21% acceptance rates and your kid at 40%==Pick a few with 30-40%+ acceptance rates where your kid is 75%+ and then show interest. Know if the schools do interviews, if they do, attempt to sign up for one and that's another 10-15 mins to highlight why you belong there. My high stats kid got into all their Targets and Safeties, and WL at two reaches, first year abroad at NEU and ultimately rejected at a T10 (ED1 Deferred then rejected). So exactly what you would expect to happen.
But since they picked great targets and safeties, they had many schools to choose from, and their top safety was such a great school, they kept it in the final 3 choices April of senior year.

I'd also say - study the data. Really really well. There is so much more than meets the eye.

Agree on STEM majors - classify down = if you think your 4.0/1600 CS/applied math/engineering major is competitive for REA at Harvard. They aren't. Look at ED at CMU. And ED2 a level down.

They may not get accepted...but hard to understand how they are not competitive.

They are competitive, but you must realize that so are 75%+ of the applicants, and 95% of the applicants will be rejected. So logically (simple stats), many highly qualified applicants will be rejected.
And applying to more schools doesn't change it. Each one is an individual event.

I get that...but competitive means you are at least through the first cut of kids with significantly lower scores, grades, etc.

I can't imagine telling a kid with those stats (and not knowing all the other parts of the application) to not apply to Harvard or MIT or wherever because "they aren't competitive". Sure, they are still likely to get rejected...but it won't be because the school didn't think you have the mental chops.

Just make sure the kid fully understands that it's still a crap shoot at all of those schools, because many many many highly qualified kids do get rejected. So apply all you want, I woudlnt' discourage it. But make sure you spend equal time on finding and applying to great targets and safeties, because there is a good chance you will be attending one of those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1560 SAT
4.0 Unweighted, 4.57 weighted
14 APs with all fives on the 8 tests taken so far
Merit Finalist
Captain and MVP of his rowing team
3 years juried music with awards
Helped run the family business (with demonstrated financial impact!)

How does that work? They don't let you take AP classes freshman year (at least I think they don't in FCPS). And some APs have prerequisites that are hard to get out of the way before sophomore year. Did he take 6 APs each year in junior and senior year, then somehow two others in sophomore year?

NP. Rules on when one can take APs vary widely. Most high schools don't prohibit freshmen from taking them.