Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just a tree. It’s not just a materialistic holiday. If it were, there wouldn’t be this annual debate. There’s no war on Christmas and there shouldn’t be an imposed requirement to celebrate Christmas either. It’s disrespectful to Christians to pretend the holiday and its symbols (like tree) are stripped of meaning and it’s disrespectful to Jews/Judaism to act as if celebrating Christmas is NBD and has no consequence for Jewish identity on a macro and micro level.

"Stripped of meaning?"

Please explain the Christian meaning of the tree.

The pagan meaning and tradition of the tree have been explained about a dozen times in this thread.

Yikes. Many many Christian traditions are built on creating new context for pagan traditions, e.g., the origins of Mary worship in Catholic tradition, https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/b/black-madonnas-origin-history-controversy.php. Would you argue that shrines to Mary have no meaning? Christmas trees

are the living embodiment of Christ for Christians. Maybe for you it’s a simple shrine to American materialism, but I doubt you would find a Christian religious leader who would agree there’s no Christian import to the tree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Christmas trees are the living embodiment of Christ for Christians.

Really? Because in many years of religious school and education, which included much study of symbology and idolization with things like the cross, the fish, palms, and many more, not once was anything mentioned about decorated fir trees having a connection to Christ. I am pretty sure there is nothing in the bible about it either. It's as religious as Easter eggs -- meaning not at all.

Anonymous wrote:Maybe for you it’s a simple shrine to American materialism

It's nothing of the sort, it is an important symbol of the celebration for the solstice and the family gathered around it. Your insults do nothing to strengthen your weak argument.

Anonymous wrote:I doubt you would find a Christian religious leader who would agree there’s no Christian import to the tree.

Any can claim that it does, but without historical backing and evidence it is no different than a Scientologist claiming 4th of July fireworks are his religious symbol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Christmas trees are the living embodiment of Christ for Christians.

Really? Because in many years of religious school and education, which included much study of symbology and idolization with things like the cross, the fish, palms, and many more, not once was anything mentioned about decorated fir trees having a connection to Christ. I am pretty sure there is nothing in the bible about it either. It's as religious as Easter eggs -- meaning not at all.

Really? Your poor religious school teachers told you Christmas is not a Christian holiday and that the Christmas tree has no connection to Christ - that the tree was a pagan symbol of a solstice and that Easter is a pagan holiday and than Eastern eggs have no religious significance- We call BS.

Anonymous wrote:Maybe for you it’s a simple shrine to American materialism

It's nothing of the sort, it is an important symbol of the celebration for the solstice and the family gathered around it. Your insults do nothing to strengthen your weak argument.

Really? Your family is celebrating a pagan solstice? We call BS.

Anonymous wrote:I doubt you would find a Christian religious leader who would agree there’s no Christian import to the tree.

Any can claim that it does, but without historical backing and evidence it is no different than a Scientologist claiming 4th of July fireworks are his religious symbol.

Really, despite historical backing and evidence and actual Christians who say Christmas is a Christmas holiday and that the Christmas tree is a symbol of this Christmas holiday celebrating Christ - you claim Christmas is a pagan solstice tradition because your arrogant self says its so and that any import ascribed by Christmas doesn't matter because of your own narcissism? We call BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Really, despite historical backing and evidence

...ummm.... all the evidence has been shown that the opposite position is true.

Anonymous wrote:Christians who say Christmas is a Christmas holiday and that the Christmas tree is a symbol of this Christmas holiday celebrating Christ - you claim Christmas is a pagan solstice tradition because your arrogant self says its so and that any import ascribed by Christmas doesn't matter because of your own narcissism? We call BS.

My narcissism has nothing to do with it. Facts are what say that a Christmas tree has a pagan history. People are allowed to celebrate anything they want but they can't say "you shouldn't have a tree if you aren't christian" because "it is a symbol of the birth of Christ" shouldn't, because it isn't.

[Anonymous]

ummmm..."all the evidence" shows that the tree has pagan roots like many aspects of Christianity, and then was adopted and imbued with Christian meaning....so yeah your narcissism in insisting that there is no Christian significance to the tree (although millions of Christians disagree) is weird...

"That [the tree] became a symbol of Christ — being triangular in shape it represents the trinity — and from there came the idea that the tree should be a symbol of Christ and new life," Dr Wilson said."That's one of the main origins of the Christmas tree and bringing it into the house."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ummmm..."all the evidence" shows that the tree has pagan roots like many aspects of Christianity, and then was adopted and imbued with Christian meaning....so yeah your narcissism in insisting that there is no Christian significance to the tree (although millions of Christians disagree) is weird...

"That [the tree] became a symbol of Christ — being triangular in shape it represents the trinity — and from there came the idea that the tree should be a symbol of Christ and new life," Dr Wilson said."That's one of the main origins of the Christmas tree and bringing it into the house."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Dude, did you read the link you posted?

Here are the first three sentences from it:

Evergreen trees and plants have been used to celebrate winter festivals for thousands of years, long before the advent of Christianity.

Pagans in Europe used branches of evergreen fir trees to decorate their homes and brighten their spirits during the winter solstice.

Early Romans used evergreens to decorate their temples at the festival of Saturnalia, while ancient Egyptians used green palm rushes as part of their worship of the god Ra.

That's from YOUR OWN LINK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ummmm..."all the evidence" shows that the tree has pagan roots like many aspects of Christianity, and then was adopted and imbued with Christian meaning....so yeah your narcissism in insisting that there is no Christian significance to the tree (although millions of Christians disagree) is weird...

"That [the tree] became a symbol of Christ — being triangular in shape it represents the trinity — and from there came the idea that the tree should be a symbol of Christ and new life," Dr Wilson said."That's one of the main origins of the Christmas tree and bringing it into the house."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Dude, did you read the link you posted?

Here are the first three sentences from it:

Evergreen trees and plants have been used to celebrate winter festivals for thousands of years, long before the advent of Christianity.

Pagans in Europe used branches of evergreen fir trees to decorate their homes and brighten their spirits during the winter solstice.

Early Romans used evergreens to decorate their temples at the festival of Saturnalia, while ancient Egyptians used green palm rushes as part of their worship of the god Ra.

That's from YOUR OWN LINK.

Is your ADHD kicking in? Read the rest of the link!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ummmm..."all the evidence" shows that the tree has pagan roots like many aspects of Christianity, and then was adopted and imbued with Christian meaning....so yeah your narcissism in insisting that there is no Christian significance to the tree (although millions of Christians disagree) is weird...

"That [the tree] became a symbol of Christ — being triangular in shape it represents the trinity — and from there came the idea that the tree should be a symbol of Christ and new life," Dr Wilson said."That's one of the main origins of the Christmas tree and bringing it into the house."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Dude, did you read the link you posted?

Here are the first three sentences from it:

Evergreen trees and plants have been used to celebrate winter festivals for thousands of years, long before the advent of Christianity.

Pagans in Europe used branches of evergreen fir trees to decorate their homes and brighten their spirits during the winter solstice.

Early Romans used evergreens to decorate their temples at the festival of Saturnalia, while ancient Egyptians used green palm rushes as part of their worship of the god Ra.

That's from YOUR OWN LINK.

+1 I'm the pp who went to Catholic school for 12 years, and we were taught that, while the Christmas tree's "evergreen" quality reminds of us the eternal life that comes through belief in God (the trinity, ie, the 3 points of the tree's triangular shape), Jesus would actually have been born in the spring. We celebrate Christmas when we do because the early church wanted to eradicate the remaining pagan festival customs, so they appropriated a winter solstice celebration date(s) and its trappings, like the Christmas tree. Easter is the same deal: bunnies and eggs are symbols of fertility, relics of pagan holidays and rites. The early church neatly appropriated them into the Christian Easter celebration.

This doesn't mean that Christmas trees are NOT important and symbolic of Christian faith elements. But they weren't "invented" by Christians, and their origins were pagan.

And I learned this from Sister Mary Augusta (my religion teacher from 8-10th grade).

[Anonymous]

Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are there a lot of us?

DD really wants a Christmas tree. She is only three and I don’t see any point in denying her this big cut tree for a couple of weeks. My MIL is going to blow a gasket.

Plus I have never had one and kind of want one too!

Go for it. Except buy a small artificial one.

I think non-Christians should start planting christmas trees in their yard and then just use a fake christmas tree indoors. That way they come out ahead in good Karma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there a lot of us?

DD really wants a Christmas tree. She is only three and I don’t see any point in denying her this big cut tree for a couple of weeks. My MIL is going to blow a gasket.

Plus I have never had one and kind of want one too!

Go for it. Except buy a small artificial one.

I think non-Christians should start planting christmas trees in their yard and then just use a fake christmas tree indoors. That way they come out ahead in good Karma.

Definitely, ruin the environment with a plastic tree, made by prison/child labor while simultaneously giving a giant FU to your ancestors. Chapeau!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there a lot of us?

DD really wants a Christmas tree. She is only three and I don’t see any point in denying her this big cut tree for a couple of weeks. My MIL is going to blow a gasket.

Plus I have never had one and kind of want one too!

Go for it. Except buy a small artificial one.

I think non-Christians should start planting christmas trees in their yard and then just use a fake christmas tree indoors. That way they come out ahead in good Karma.

Definitely, ruin the environment with a plastic tree, made by prison/child labor while simultaneously giving a giant FU to your ancestors. Chapeau!

Chapeau?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This friggin discussion began on 10/18

Forget hanukah (and purim, and Maimuna) for a minute.

As an American Jew, am I not entitled to have Thanksgiving BEFORE we get these fucackte discusssions about trees? I mean if Christians want to start Christmas before Veterans Day, thats their right, but can't we have turkey first? When my great grandparents lived in the shtetl they never debated to have a tree or not until the last turkey sandwiches were done, the last pie plate cleaned - certainly not before the Penn State Pitt game was decided. Moses our revered teacher said "You shalt not debate the christmas tree while the gobbler lies before you!" Rabbi Akiva said - the gobbler - this means not only the turkey but any side dish as well. His students said - even a roll? He said "if its a kind of roll that they only have on thanksgiving yes, but if they have it all the time, then no, they may debate the tree" The schlitz rav, in his halachic work, the likkutei split, asked "what does this mean all the time? They may not have dinner rolls at a casual meal, and on shabbat they have challah! From this we learn a family should gather for a family dinner at least once a week (but merit if they do so much more!) If they have the rolls once a week at that dinner, then it is "all the time" and so they may talk about the tree even when leftover rolls from Thanksgiving are around, but if not, not!" And this custom is kept by Jews of Polish descent, except by the Reform, which is a shande.

Lol. You win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t care what anyone does on any holiday, but for Jews to argue that Christmas trees are not Cristian because the pagans had Christmas trees before the Christians are just rationalizing their decision to have a Christmas tree. It is total BS to say that Christmas is anything other than a Cristian holiday. Cut me a break already.

My solstice tree is completely free of Christianity. I do a ceremony where I rub it with menstrual blood and chant about gay marriage to make sure.

I love this idea. I think I'll adopt it this year, too. It will give new meaning to "blood libel."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.