Two paths to magnet program at Richard Montgomery High School

[Anonymous]

IB was added to RM 30 years ago..pre Kings Farm, Parc Potomac, Falls Grove. It is an entirely different population now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that OP's real motivation is that kids who joined the IB program in 11th grade are putting Richard Montgomery IB diploma program on their college applications, just like OP's kid who joined in 9th grade, and OP is worried that this will ruin OP's kid's chances of getting into Fancypants U.

Why are you trying to shoot the messenger?

My kid is not planning Fancypants U. UMD is fine and nothing that the school does affects my kid personally.

I am imploring parents of RM hopeful students to ask questions and hold MCPS/RM accountable for the magnet program they are promised for. Why are you against that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that OP's real motivation is that kids who joined the IB program in 11th grade are putting Richard Montgomery IB diploma program on their college applications, just like OP's kid who joined in 9th grade, and OP is worried that this will ruin OP's kid's chances of getting into Fancypants U.

Or they object to RM not being honest and upfront with the families of prospective families.
There is a big difference between having magnet classes in 11th and 12th grade with the IB magnet students and a handful of highly qualified RM students who went through a rigorous process to enter the magnet program in 11th grade and having IB classes in 11th and 12th grade with a mixture of magnet students and RM students who did not go through a rigorous selection process to enter the program. It absolutely will affect the quality of the educational experience in these classes.

Regarding the college application question. If these kids are being identified as RMIB diploma students then that is of course fine but if they are being represented as RMIB magnet students that again is dishonest.
RMIB has always admitted a group of students from JWMS - I can't remember how many but I think something like 20% of the incoming class are students from JWMS. That is well known and most people don't mind this because it is a high performing MS and these kids do go through a rigorous process to be selected. What the school is now doing in 11th grade is very, very different and does compromise the integrity of the magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What? Of course RM has kids from out of it boundaries? And since RM has over 2000 kids it would be quite viable without the magnet...though I know that was not the case 30 years ago when it was added.

What I intended to say was RM itself does not "allow" the OOB kids. Its based on an agreement with MCPS the magnet program takes the OOB kids, unless someone gets a COSA waiver.

As for RM being viable without the magnet kids, you are right about student strength. It was a low-performing school about to close due to performance reason. So, I am not sure what its state would be without the magnet program now. However, if RM administration and parents feel they do not gain anything from the magnet program, they should ask the county to move the magnet program from its school to another school instead of trying to undermine it. May be RM-Cluster parents should push for that.

No, the school was under enrolled. If it was ever a candidate for closing down, it was due to enrollment issues, not performance issues. If a school district were to close a school for low performance, you'd see a lot more schools closing down all over the country.

The "state" of RM would be fine with IB magnet. How do I know this? Look at JWMS performance.

Sorry, that should read ""state" of RM would be fine withOUT IB magnet".

LOL. RM is like GHS without IB.

? really, is that why JWMS is rated high? Or are you saying that if MCPS hadn't put IB in RM, then cluster wouldn't have attracted so many upper SES families?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you assume that the comprehensive kids in the IB classes are low-performing?

The average SAT score difference between IB kids and non IB kids is probably more than 700 pts. I think it's a fair thing to say. And before you ask for proof, you know as well as I do the MCPS doesn't publish that information but you can estimate - you know the number of IB kids, you know the number of RM kids (including IB), you know SAT avg for entire class, and you know avg SAT for IB kids. If you have at least HS education, you can calculate avg SAT for non IB kids. Your HW for tonight.

Good god.. How is that possible?? Gap between RMIB and regular kids that wide?

It's not, that PP is a nut.

To OP's point, here's what appears to be the explainer sheet that was sent with IB transcripts last year: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/aboutys/2016-17%20IB_Insert.pdf
It says there were 133 IB degree candidates in 2016 (118 successful) and given that 125 freshmen are admitted by application that means at least 8 local students joined (plus whatever it takes to replace attrition from the magnet). The back door may exist but it's not so significant. Yep, thirteen pages of back and forth about 8 interlopers (give or take).

It might be that wide on the 2400 pint scale

It would be out of 2400, but the letter above says the IB average was 2100 in 2017, so PP is suggesting the non-magnet students and an average score of 1400/2400. Other MCPS data says the average school wide SAT for RM in 2016 was 1779 with 387 seniors tested. Different years so can't actually calculate but the trend wouldn't support PP's claim. E.g., if there are about 3 times as many non magnet students tested, and PP's claim is correct, the 2017 school average would be
(2100*1 +1400*3)/4 = 1575, a 200 point drop from the 2016 school average. I call BS and that PP hasn't resurfaced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that OP's real motivation is that kids who joined the IB program in 11th grade are putting Richard Montgomery IB diploma program on their college applications, just like OP's kid who joined in 9th grade, and OP is worried that this will ruin OP's kid's chances of getting into Fancypants U.

Or they object to RM not being honest and upfront with the families of prospective families.
There is a big difference between having magnet classes in 11th and 12th grade with the IB magnet students and a handful of highly qualified RM students who went through a rigorous process to enter the magnet program in 11th grade and having IB classes in 11th and 12th grade with a mixture of magnet students and RM students who did not go through a rigorous selection process to enter the program. It absolutely will affect the quality of the educational experience in these classes.

Regarding the college application question. If these kids are being identified as RMIB diploma students then that is of course fine but if they are being represented as RMIB magnet students that again is dishonest.
RMIB has always admitted a group of students from JWMS - I can't remember how many but I think something like 20% of the incoming class are students from JWMS. That is well known and most people don't mind this because it is a high performing MS and these kids do go through a rigorous process to be selected. What the school is now doing in 11th grade is very, very different and does compromise the integrity of the magnet program.

People keep saying that, but they haven't yet said how.

And at least one person with a kid in the program said that it doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that OP's real motivation is that kids who joined the IB program in 11th grade are putting Richard Montgomery IB diploma program on their college applications, just like OP's kid who joined in 9th grade, and OP is worried that this will ruin OP's kid's chances of getting into Fancypants U.

Or they object to RM not being honest and upfront with the families of prospective families.
There is a big difference between having magnet classes in 11th and 12th grade with the IB magnet students and a handful of highly qualified RM students who went through a rigorous process to enter the magnet program in 11th grade and having IB classes in 11th and 12th grade with a mixture of magnet students and RM students who did not go through a rigorous selection process to enter the program. It absolutely will affect the quality of the educational experience in these classes.

Regarding the college application question. If these kids are being identified as RMIB diploma students then that is of course fine but if they are being represented as RMIB magnet students that again is dishonest.
RMIB has always admitted a group of students from JWMS - I can't remember how many but I think something like 20% of the incoming class are students from JWMS. That is well known and most people don't mind this because it is a high performing MS and these kids do go through a rigorous process to be selected. What the school is now doing in 11th grade is very, very different and does compromise the integrity of the magnet program.

People keep saying that, but they haven't yet said how.

And at least one person with a kid in the program said that it doesn't.

Actually many PPs did. The main reason why magnet classes are able to go fast and deep simultaneously is because the students are all at one level in terms of ability and preparation. There are definitely some kids who are outliers but for the most part these kids are all in the top 5% of students. If you have several cohorts in one class, the teacher has no choice - he or she has to go a little slower, cover less material, cover it at a lower level and the assignments will not be quite as challenging.
We are basically having an argument about ability grouping - there are some parents here who say it matters and that it is one of the main reasons they are willing to support their children going to a magnet program and there are other parents who say it does not matter.
The selection process to get into magnet programs is all about forming a cohort of high ability kids who both need and can handle a very challenging and rigorous course of study. RM's move is one more sign that MCPS is moving away from this in which case they need to be upfront and tell parents of prospective students what is going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Actually many PPs did. The main reason why magnet classes are able to go fast and deep simultaneously is because the students are all at one level in terms of ability and preparation. There are definitely some kids who are outliers but for the most part these kids are all in the top 5% of students. If you have several cohorts in one class, the teacher has no choice - he or she has to go a little slower, cover less material, cover it at a lower level and the assignments will not be quite as challenging.
We are basically having an argument about ability grouping - there are some parents here who say it matters and that it is one of the main reasons they are willing to support their children going to a magnet program and there are other parents who say it does not matter.
The selection process to get into magnet programs is all about forming a cohort of high ability kids who both need and can handle a very challenging and rigorous course of study. RM's move is one more sign that MCPS is moving away from this in which case they need to be upfront and tell parents of prospective students what is going on.

These are IB classes. Same pace, same material.

Now, how about evidence that the actual comprehensive kids in the actual IB classes at RM are ruining it for the kids in the application program? Not that it's possible that they might -- that they actually are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually many PPs did. The main reason why magnet classes are able to go fast and deep simultaneously is because the students are all at one level in terms of ability and preparation. There are definitely some kids who are outliers but for the most part these kids are all in the top 5% of students. If you have several cohorts in one class, the teacher has no choice - he or she has to go a little slower, cover less material, cover it at a lower level and the assignments will not be quite as challenging.
We are basically having an argument about ability grouping - there are some parents here who say it matters and that it is one of the main reasons they are willing to support their children going to a magnet program and there are other parents who say it does not matter.
The selection process to get into magnet programs is all about forming a cohort of high ability kids who both need and can handle a very challenging and rigorous course of study. RM's move is one more sign that MCPS is moving away from this in which case they need to be upfront and tell parents of prospective students what is going on.

These are IB classes. Same pace, same material.

Now, how about evidence that the actual comprehensive kids in the actual IB classes at RM are ruining it for the kids in the application program? Not that it's possible that they might -- that they actually are.

Here is a direct quote from the RMIB school profile:
"EXPECTATIONS AND STUDENT SUCCESS
As a result of the selection process, classroom expectations and exam performance are substantially higher than that of
comparable programs worldwide"
So RM is saying that the selection process does affect the classroom experience.
Here is how they describe the selection process:
STUDENT SELECTION
The IB Magnet Diploma Program at Richard Montgomery High School is a four year International Baccalaureate continuum program which blends an intensive two-year IB Middle Years preparatory program
(grades 9 and 10) with the rigorous international standards of the full Diploma Program (grades 11 and 12). As the IB Magnet at Richard Montgomery is a countywide program, entrance is competitive. The IB at Richard Montgomery attracts many of the best students from Montgomery County, Maryland, a community of over a million outside of Washington, DC, with one of the finest public school systems in the nation. Academically exceptional and motivated students are offered entry to the program after a highly selective process that evaluates standardized admission test scores, a writing assessment, teacher
recommendations, and academic grades. Over 900 students apply annually for admission; the average freshman class is 125 students"
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/aboutys/2016-17%20IB_Insert.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you assume that the comprehensive kids in the IB classes are low-performing?

The average SAT score difference between IB kids and non IB kids is probably more than 700 pts. I think it's a fair thing to say. And before you ask for proof, you know as well as I do the MCPS doesn't publish that information but you can estimate - you know the number of IB kids, you know the number of RM kids (including IB), you know SAT avg for entire class, and you know avg SAT for IB kids. If you have at least HS education, you can calculate avg SAT for non IB kids. Your HW for tonight.

Good god.. How is that possible?? Gap between RMIB and regular kids that wide?

It's not, that PP is a nut.

To OP's point, here's what appears to be the explainer sheet that was sent with IB transcripts last year: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/aboutys/2016-17%20IB_Insert.pdf
It says there were 133 IB degree candidates in 2016 (118 successful) and given that 125 freshmen are admitted by application that means at least 8 local students joined (plus whatever it takes to replace attrition from the magnet). The back door may exist but it's not so significant. Yep, thirteen pages of back and forth about 8 interlopers (give or take).

It might be that wide on the 2400 pint scale

It would be out of 2400, but the letter above says the IB average was 2100 in 2017, so PP is suggesting the non-magnet students and an average score of 1400/2400. Other MCPS data says the average school wide SAT for RM in 2016 was 1779 with 387 seniors tested. Different years so can't actually calculate but the trend wouldn't support PP's claim. E.g., if there are about 3 times as many non magnet students tested, and PP's claim is correct, the 2017 school average would be
(2100*1 +1400*3)/4 = 1575, a 200 point drop from the 2016 school average. I call BS and that PP hasn't resurfaced.

That's really sad. The same profile (which was replaced by above profile) for the class of 2016 used to show 2250 avg. Dropped 140 pts between classes of 2016/2017.

[Anonymous]

.

That's really sad. The same profile (which was replaced by above profile) for the class of 2016 used to show 2250 avg. Dropped 140 pts between classes of 2016/2017.

You can thank the new principal. That's what happens when you mix kids in. Slow death of RMIB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you assume that the comprehensive kids in the IB classes are low-performing?

The average SAT score difference between IB kids and non IB kids is probably more than 700 pts. I think it's a fair thing to say. And before you ask for proof, you know as well as I do the MCPS doesn't publish that information but you can estimate - you know the number of IB kids, you know the number of RM kids (including IB), you know SAT avg for entire class, and you know avg SAT for IB kids. If you have at least HS education, you can calculate avg SAT for non IB kids. Your HW for tonight.

Good god.. How is that possible?? Gap between RMIB and regular kids that wide?

It's not, that PP is a nut.

To OP's point, here's what appears to be the explainer sheet that was sent with IB transcripts last year: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/aboutys/2016-17%20IB_Insert.pdf
It says there were 133 IB degree candidates in 2016 (118 successful) and given that 125 freshmen are admitted by application that means at least 8 local students joined (plus whatever it takes to replace attrition from the magnet). The back door may exist but it's not so significant. Yep, thirteen pages of back and forth about 8 interlopers (give or take).

It might be that wide on the 2400 pint scale

It would be out of 2400, but the letter above says the IB average was 2100 in 2017, so PP is suggesting the non-magnet students and an average score of 1400/2400. Other MCPS data says the average school wide SAT for RM in 2016 was 1779 with 387 seniors tested. Different years so can't actually calculate but the trend wouldn't support PP's claim. E.g., if there are about 3 times as many non magnet students tested, and PP's claim is correct, the 2017 school average would be
(2100*1 +1400*3)/4 = 1575, a 200 point drop from the 2016 school average. I call BS and that PP hasn't resurfaced.

That's really sad. The same profile (which was replaced by above profile) for the class of 2016 used to show 2250 avg. Dropped 140 pts between classes of 2016/2017.

RMIB SAT scores used to be very close to Blair Magnet. They now seem lower.
RMIB SAT scores for the Class of 2017
Critical Reading/Verbal 720
Mathematics 720
Writing 660 (this is surprisingly low)

Blair Magnet class of 2017
Critical Reading/Verbal 747
Mathematics 779
Writing 727

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you assume that the comprehensive kids in the IB classes are low-performing?

The average SAT score difference between IB kids and non IB kids is probably more than 700 pts. I think it's a fair thing to say. And before you ask for proof, you know as well as I do the MCPS doesn't publish that information but you can estimate - you know the number of IB kids, you know the number of RM kids (including IB), you know SAT avg for entire class, and you know avg SAT for IB kids. If you have at least HS education, you can calculate avg SAT for non IB kids. Your HW for tonight.

Good god.. How is that possible?? Gap between RMIB and regular kids that wide?

It's not, that PP is a nut.

To OP's point, here's what appears to be the explainer sheet that was sent with IB transcripts last year: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/aboutys/2016-17%20IB_Insert.pdf
It says there were 133 IB degree candidates in 2016 (118 successful) and given that 125 freshmen are admitted by application that means at least 8 local students joined (plus whatever it takes to replace attrition from the magnet). The back door may exist but it's not so significant. Yep, thirteen pages of back and forth about 8 interlopers (give or take).

It might be that wide on the 2400 pint scale

It would be out of 2400, but the letter above says the IB average was 2100 in 2017, so PP is suggesting the non-magnet students and an average score of 1400/2400. Other MCPS data says the average school wide SAT for RM in 2016 was 1779 with 387 seniors tested. Different years so can't actually calculate but the trend wouldn't support PP's claim. E.g., if there are about 3 times as many non magnet students tested, and PP's claim is correct, the 2017 school average would be
(2100*1 +1400*3)/4 = 1575, a 200 point drop from the 2016 school average. I call BS and that PP hasn't resurfaced.

That's really sad. The same profile (which was replaced by above profile) for the class of 2016 used to show 2250 avg. Dropped 140 pts between classes of 2016/2017.

RMIB SAT scores used to be very close to Blair Magnet. They now seem lower.
RMIB SAT scores for the Class of 2017
Critical Reading/Verbal 720
Mathematics 720
Writing 660 (this is surprisingly low)

Blair Magnet class of 2017
Critical Reading/Verbal 747
Mathematics 779
Writing 727

Yes, Blair SMAC, RMIB, and TJ all had close to 2250 average (give or take a few points).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that OP's real motivation is that kids who joined the IB program in 11th grade are putting Richard Montgomery IB diploma program on their college applications, just like OP's kid who joined in 9th grade, and OP is worried that this will ruin OP's kid's chances of getting into Fancypants U.

Or they object to RM not being honest and upfront with the families of prospective families.
There is a big difference between having magnet classes in 11th and 12th grade with the IB magnet students and a handful of highly qualified RM students who went through a rigorous process to enter the magnet program in 11th grade and having IB classes in 11th and 12th grade with a mixture of magnet students and RM students who did not go through a rigorous selection process to enter the program. It absolutely will affect the quality of the educational experience in these classes.

Regarding the college application question. If these kids are being identified as RMIB diploma students then that is of course fine but if they are being represented as RMIB magnet students that again is dishonest.
RMIB has always admitted a group of students from JWMS - I can't remember how many but I think something like 20% of the incoming class are students from JWMS. That is well known and most people don't mind this because it is a high performing MS and these kids do go through a rigorous process to be selected. What the school is now doing in 11th grade is very, very different and does compromise the integrity of the magnet program.

People keep saying that, but they haven't yet said how.

And at least one person with a kid in the program said that it doesn't.

You keep asking without understanding the reason for opening a central magnet program without providing magnet education in every schools. The reason MCPS has decided to gather the magnet students in one (actual 4/5 groups across three application based magnet schools) school is that these students in their home school cannot be educated in their home school at the pace, depth and methods that is appropriate for their academic growth. If it was possible to provide them the same education with comprehensive students in their homeschool they do not need to be uprooted from their home schools. Think about it. If the quality of education experience was not being affected by comprehensive students why the magnet students are screened so rigorously and placed outside their homeschool comprehensive population?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually many PPs did. The main reason why magnet classes are able to go fast and deep simultaneously is because the students are all at one level in terms of ability and preparation. There are definitely some kids who are outliers but for the most part these kids are all in the top 5% of students. If you have several cohorts in one class, the teacher has no choice - he or she has to go a little slower, cover less material, cover it at a lower level and the assignments will not be quite as challenging.
We are basically having an argument about ability grouping - there are some parents here who say it matters and that it is one of the main reasons they are willing to support their children going to a magnet program and there are other parents who say it does not matter.
The selection process to get into magnet programs is all about forming a cohort of high ability kids who both need and can handle a very challenging and rigorous course of study. RM's move is one more sign that MCPS is moving away from this in which case they need to be upfront and tell parents of prospective students what is going on.

These are IB classes. Same pace, same material.

Now, how about evidence that the actual comprehensive kids in the actual IB classes at RM are ruining it for the kids in the application program? Not that it's possible that they might -- that they actually are.

Please try to get a good understanding of what magnet education mean. Magnet math, or magnet science follows the same math and same science curriculum, but different in depth and material. Anatomy & Physiology in HS and Anatomy & Physiology in Med school are not the same. IB is a philosophy. A IB Biology class can be taught many different way to different level of audience. Its not the same pace and not the same material. Comprehensive kids are not "ruining" it for the application program kids. Its is the adults mistake to think one of these two group do not deserve to be taught at their level. It is impossible to prove what you are asking without a controlled experiments over a very long period and that kind of experiment is not fair to either set of kids.