Oldest kids in class do better, even through college - NPR

[Anonymous]

My child with an August birthday was able to read and perform basic math prior to kindergarten. My biggest concern was they'd be bored beyond belief if I did not send them. Would prefer my child was challenged than bored. Developing skills needed to cope with a challenge will serve them better in life.

[Anonymous]

When people on this thread say that K is "too academic" as a justification for holding a kid back, what does that actually mean? And what do you worry the implications of a "too academic" kindergarten will be, if you send them on time? Failing grades? Frustration and not developing a love for school? Kid is too wiggly and that causes behavior problems in school? Just trying to understand how this plays out.

[Anonymous]

Both of our children have September birthdays and both are the youngest in their classes. They're doing great. Some children aren't ready to start on time, but most are. Parental insecurity drives redshirting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting! New Yorker ran a piece on this a few years ago with the exact opposite conclusion.

Youngest Kid, Smartest Kid?

These skills translate to a mindset that is crucial to lifelong achievement. In a way, the choice between redshirting and not is the choice between providing your child with a maturity boost or a challenge. While there is certainly an absolute benefit to being bigger and stronger, learning to deal with and overcome obstacles also has a long-lasting effect. It’s a quality the psychologist Angela Duckworth calls “grit,” and Carol Dweck dubs the “incremental mindset”: the knowledge that perseverance, dedication, and motivation can help you where an absolute advantage may not immediately come to the rescue. If you’ve always been praised as the best and brightest, chances are that that self-perception will eventually backfire; if you’ve had to earn your distinctions, they’re more likely to last.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/youngest-kid-smartest-kid

This seems a bit less obscure and more mainstream.

That article jumps to conclusions not supported by the studies cited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting! New Yorker ran a piece on this a few years ago with the exact opposite conclusion.

Youngest Kid, Smartest Kid?

These skills translate to a mindset that is crucial to lifelong achievement. In a way, the choice between redshirting and not is the choice between providing your child with a maturity boost or a challenge. While there is certainly an absolute benefit to being bigger and stronger, learning to deal with and overcome obstacles also has a long-lasting effect. It’s a quality the psychologist Angela Duckworth calls “grit,” and Carol Dweck dubs the “incremental mindset”: the knowledge that perseverance, dedication, and motivation can help you where an absolute advantage may not immediately come to the rescue. If you’ve always been praised as the best and brightest, chances are that that self-perception will eventually backfire; if you’ve had to earn your distinctions, they’re more likely to last.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/youngest-kid-smartest-kid

This seems a bit less obscure and more mainstream.

That article jumps to conclusions not supported by the studies cited.

The New Yorker article is more credible and the nonsense cited in this thread seems at odds with everything I'd read about this for the past decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When people on this thread say that K is "too academic" as a justification for holding a kid back, what does that actually mean? And what do you worry the implications of a "too academic" kindergarten will be, if you send them on time? Failing grades? Frustration and not developing a love for school? Kid is too wiggly and that causes behavior problems in school? Just trying to understand how this plays out.

Kid is tracked in 'stupid group' for the rest of school. Kid thinks he's stupid.

Parents encourage kid to be out on stimulant medication to 'keep up and calm down' - which will typically last all through school if not a lifetime. Hell, my brother even started the meds when his kids did because the counselors convinced him that he was 'also adhd' like his K aged kid (until he had a mental breakdown and lost his job as a result a few years later. And no - his kid doesn't need the meds anymore either but how do you get off? Your brain needs them now)

Kid gets kicked out of K. Which isn't a bad thing really (many bright people I know were kicked out of K) but can be traumatic socially.

Losing a year of creative and social play when that was what was developmentally appropriate for the child.

DD was held back at the request of the teachers. She's now a senior and we have zero regrets. She is doing great, she's a top student and well adjudted.
She does have some floundering 'too young for their grade' peers who are closer to the bottom of the class. Probably won't even out because they just assume that they are 'not smart' because they are bringing up the bottom of the class, but not sure that's true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting! New Yorker ran a piece on this a few years ago with the exact opposite conclusion.

Youngest Kid, Smartest Kid?

These skills translate to a mindset that is crucial to lifelong achievement. In a way, the choice between redshirting and not is the choice between providing your child with a maturity boost or a challenge. While there is certainly an absolute benefit to being bigger and stronger, learning to deal with and overcome obstacles also has a long-lasting effect. It’s a quality the psychologist Angela Duckworth calls “grit,” and Carol Dweck dubs the “incremental mindset”: the knowledge that perseverance, dedication, and motivation can help you where an absolute advantage may not immediately come to the rescue. If you’ve always been praised as the best and brightest, chances are that that self-perception will eventually backfire; if you’ve had to earn your distinctions, they’re more likely to last.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/youngest-kid-smartest-kid

This seems a bit less obscure and more mainstream.

That article jumps to conclusions not supported by the studies cited.

The New Yorker article is more credible and the nonsense cited in this thread seems at odds with everything I'd read about this for the past decade.

These threads are always just about trying to beat other people into making the same bad mistakes that they did. Of course it's not credible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child with an August birthday was able to read and perform basic math prior to kindergarten. My biggest concern was they'd be bored beyond belief if I did not send them. Would prefer my child was challenged than bored. Developing skills needed to cope with a challenge will serve them better in life.

It's not hard to keep a 5 year old engaged without a kindergarten classroom. Nature walks and outdoor play, trips to the library for stacks of books, simple math worked into her days, pretend play, cooking, art etc. if Kindergarten was still like that I would have sent my kid on time as that is what is developmentally appropriate for the age. Regular K with the work sheets and reading groups is just soul sucking and shortsighted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When people on this thread say that K is "too academic" as a justification for holding a kid back, what does that actually mean? And what do you worry the implications of a "too academic" kindergarten will be, if you send them on time? Failing grades? Frustration and not developing a love for school? Kid is too wiggly and that causes behavior problems in school? Just trying to understand how this plays out.

Kid is tracked in 'stupid group' for the rest of school. Kid thinks he's stupid.

Parents encourage kid to be out on stimulant medication to 'keep up and calm down' - which will typically last all through school if not a lifetime. Hell, my brother even started the meds when his kids did because the counselors convinced him that he was 'also adhd' like his K aged kid (until he had a mental breakdown and lost his job as a result a few years later. And no - his kid doesn't need the meds anymore either but how do you get off? Your brain needs them now)

Kid gets kicked out of K. Which isn't a bad thing really (many bright people I know were kicked out of K) but can be traumatic socially.

Losing a year of creative and social play when that was what was developmentally appropriate for the child.

DD was held back at the request of the teachers. She's now a senior and we have zero regrets. She is doing great, she's a top student and well adjudted.
She does have some floundering 'too young for their grade' peers who are closer to the bottom of the class. Probably won't even out because they just assume that they are 'not smart' because they are bringing up the bottom of the class, but not sure that's true.

And no, DD is not a top athlete or a big school leader. Socially she is just barely getting by - because she was and is still socially immature. What she needed extra time to do is grow emotionally (worked all of her life on supporting this) and that continues to be the case. She's much better off where she is and she is just about mature enough where we won't worry when she goes off to college and that's good. I feel like we've done our job.

The kids who get out of high school academically fine but socially immature seem to stick around home for a few years , maybe attending community college, maybe working - but not getting anywhere fast and it's not a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few kids who repeated a preK or K year -- but I'm always surprised by red-shirting. Are families paying for an entire year more of daycare? I can't imagine any of the public school families I know having the resources to throw 15-20K at this.

It's not an extra 20k for an extra year of PK. Our (very good) PK is $1200/month. Public K is not "free" - you have to figure in after care and vacations (at least 5k for the school year). So for a 10-month school year, the extra cost of staying in PK is more like 6-7K. That's not an amount I would be
overjoyed to pay, but it's doable for a lot of people.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal but I hope we are not using public tax dollars to pay for an extra year of public preschool for redshirted kids without documented learning disabilities

We don't have subsidized preK here except some in DC and they would never let a kid repeat that I don't think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. My daughter's pre-K class is going to be more than 50% redshirters. Her preschool has hard a difficult time rearranging classes due to the number of unexpected redshirts -- it means there are several younger 3s who aren't able to move into 4 year old classrooms as expected.

Sounds like daycare and not preschool. Daycare is not preschool and you should send your kid to preK before school...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I live in Canada...red shirting doesn't exist here that I know of.

Our cut off is Dec 31 so kids start junior kindergarten at 3 (4 by Dec 31) or 4 and then start senior kindergarten at 4 (turning 5 by Dec 31) or 5.

The kindergarten classes are mixed - junior and senior together so if a child is still acts a little younger going into senior, it isn't all that noticeable. Also it gives the seniors a year of mentoring the juniors which helps the mature and grow up. By the time the seniors go into first grade, they have two years of school under their belt and are ready for it. Both our junior and senior kindergarten are play based and first grade is also mostly active learning...although with more desk work. By 3rd grade most kids have evened out maturity wise and are more developmentally similar so our area won't hold back before third grade unless there is some major extenuating circumstance.

It works great.

This is good!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child with an August birthday was able to read and perform basic math prior to kindergarten. My biggest concern was they'd be bored beyond belief if I did not send them. Would prefer my child was challenged than bored. Developing skills needed to cope with a challenge will serve them better in life.

It's not hard to keep a 5 year old engaged without a kindergarten classroom. Nature walks and outdoor play, trips to the library for stacks of books, simple math worked into her days, pretend play, cooking, art etc. if Kindergarten was still like that I would have sent my kid on time as that is what is developmentally appropriate for the age. Regular K with the work sheets and reading groups is just soul sucking and shortsighted.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting! New Yorker ran a piece on this a few years ago with the exact opposite conclusion.

Youngest Kid, Smartest Kid?

These skills translate to a mindset that is crucial to lifelong achievement. In a way, the choice between redshirting and not is the choice between providing your child with a maturity boost or a challenge. While there is certainly an absolute benefit to being bigger and stronger, learning to deal with and overcome obstacles also has a long-lasting effect. It’s a quality the psychologist Angela Duckworth calls “grit,” and Carol Dweck dubs the “incremental mindset”: the knowledge that perseverance, dedication, and motivation can help you where an absolute advantage may not immediately come to the rescue. If you’ve always been praised as the best and brightest, chances are that that self-perception will eventually backfire; if you’ve had to earn your distinctions, they’re more likely to last.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/youngest-kid-smartest-kid

This seems a bit less obscure and more mainstream.

That article jumps to conclusions not supported by the studies cited.

The New Yorker article is more credible and the nonsense cited in this thread seems at odds with everything I'd read about this for the past decade.

Shrug. I don't base my decisions on DCUM, either. I'm just pointing out that if you go to the actual studies and read them, they are a lot narrower in their conclusions than what the author claims. Up to you if you care about accuracy or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Canada...red shirting doesn't exist here that I know of.

Our cut off is Dec 31 so kids start junior kindergarten at 3 (4 by Dec 31) or 4 and then start senior kindergarten at 4 (turning 5 by Dec 31) or 5.

The kindergarten classes are mixed - junior and senior together so if a child is still acts a little younger going into senior, it isn't all that noticeable. Also it gives the seniors a year of mentoring the juniors which helps the mature and grow up. By the time the seniors go into first grade, they have two years of school under their belt and are ready for it. Both our junior and senior kindergarten are play based and first grade is also mostly active learning...although with more desk work. By 3rd grade most kids have evened out maturity wise and are more developmentally similar so our area won't hold back before third grade unless there is some major extenuating circumstance.

It works great.

This is good!!

Redshirting doesn't exist in Canada yet the relative age effect absolutely exists. Canada has certainly not solved the issue of relative age.
http://globalnews.ca/news/219039/youngest-kids-in-class-more-likely-to-be-diagnosed-with-adhd-put-on-meds-study-3/

Original study is here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328520/