Supreme Court revisits Texas affirmative action in new case

[Anonymous]

I believe in the educational benefits of diversity, but we lose a lot of those benefits when students like the petulant protesters at Yale and Princeton insist on "safe spaces" and "affinity dorms" where they can self-segregate from the rest of the campus community. If racial and other groups are going to remove themselves to their silos, the point of diversity on campus starts gets lost because there isn't the mixture of experiences, thoughts and perspectives to challenge students' pre-conceived notions and enrich their education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even private schools are heavily funded with federal grants and financial aid. Yes, Americans should have priority...

And they are heavily subsidized through the U.S. tax code which provides favorable deduction treatment of the substantial private gifts that such institutions depend upon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe in the educational benefits of diversity, but we lose a lot of those benefits when students like the petulant protesters at Yale and Princeton insist on "safe spaces" and "affinity dorms" where they can self-segregate from the rest of the campus community. If racial and other groups are going to remove themselves to their silos, the point of diversity on campus starts gets lost because there isn't the mixture of experiences, thoughts and perspectives to challenge students' pre-conceived notions and enrich their education.

Agreed. College is about challenge, not comfort.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:...and, in addition to that, studies have shown that grades are more indicative of success then test scores.

If you're interested in how well test score predict college performance:

http://www.isironline.org/isir-2015-invited-address-paul-sackett-nathan-kuncel/

They have a dataset that show that test scores predict academic performance quite well, and do so regardless of race, SES and gender. The sample size was 1.2 million college students.

This has been refuted. High SAT scores are correlated to high SES. When I get a moment, I will post. Especially, when it comes to LSAT and bar passage rates.

No, this hasn't been refuted. It's a brand new study with 1.2 million participants (college board data). Most of other studies were very small sample size or were manipulated to get the results the author wanted. Watch the presentation, it's very illuminating.

What will it prove? That only kids with high SAT scores should go to college? That only a subset of our population deserve to be there? That colleges should only use test scores for admission? That our society is better if we only employ people who scored well? Please - illuminate me.

Yes? Do you think everybody is college material?

Depends on the race.

Non-black applicant with 2370 SAT, 4.0 and 4.6 gpa, 12+ APs all 5s, 800 on all subject tests, sport, orchestra, 2 major leadership positions, extensive volunteering, original research at University, internships at research labs, writing award and writing tutor, 3 foreign languages, excellent clubs and ECs, excellent LORs etc. denied to all colleges except one. Low SES with no advantages.

A black applicant with the above qualifications would have been admitted to all of the colleges. Depends on the race.

Agree. There are plenty of athletes, legacies, and non-black students who do not fit the above same criteria, but still get in.

Seems to me there should be concerned about the high acceptances of international students, as evidenced the article below from CC:


An interesting article at the Wall Street Journal notes that 975,000 international students are enrolled in US colleges and universities this year, up 10% from the year before. Since most of these are full-tuition students, they are attractive prospects for financially strapped US schools. But, it's making it more difficult for US and in-state students to be admitted.

The article focuses on University of California schools, who accepted 62% of in-state applicants last year - down from 84% four years earlier.

According to the article, the UC schools are the most affected. Most other state schools have held in-state admissions steady. (The article doesn't describe the effect on out-of-state US students. Presumably, a full-pay international student might be more desirable than a domestic student who would need financial aid.)

Declining state subsidies in California, UC administrators say, make it necessary to admit more full-pay international students to keep in-state tuition low.

More: http://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-pinch-university-of-california-home-state-admissions-1447650060

PP, it's the precise opposite. If we truly believe in the educational benefits of diversity, we need to bring in MANY MORE international students. 975,000 international students is but a token. I want my kids exposed to how the Chinese think, how Arabs speak, how Latin Americans dance, how Germans plan.

If you prefer a chauvinist approach ("only American students matter"), you are of course entitled to say so, but please add clarify that you don't really give a sh*t about diversity.

I fully believe that American universities should first educate American citizens. An educated citizenry benefits our education just as our first responsibility is jobs for our citizens not jobs for the world.

Very well said, and you prove my point: you don't believe in the supposed "educational benefits of diversity"

I fully believe that taxpayer dollars (and yes, taxpayer dollars do go to higher education) should first benefit our citizenry. That does not mean I am opposed to diversity. However, an educated populace should be our first goal, not educating others to benefit their populace at the expense of ours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:...and, in addition to that, studies have shown that grades are more indicative of success then test scores.

If you're interested in how well test score predict college performance:

http://www.isironline.org/isir-2015-invited-address-paul-sackett-nathan-kuncel/

They have a dataset that show that test scores predict academic performance quite well, and do so regardless of race, SES and gender. The sample size was 1.2 million college students.

This has been refuted. High SAT scores are correlated to high SES. When I get a moment, I will post. Especially, when it comes to LSAT and bar passage rates.

No, this hasn't been refuted. It's a brand new study with 1.2 million participants (college board data). Most of other studies were very small sample size or were manipulated to get the results the author wanted. Watch the presentation, it's very illuminating.

What will it prove? That only kids with high SAT scores should go to college? That only a subset of our population deserve to be there? That colleges should only use test scores for admission? That our society is better if we only employ people who scored well? Please - illuminate me.

Yes? Do you think everybody is college material?

Depends on the race.

Non-black applicant with 2370 SAT, 4.0 and 4.6 gpa, 12+ APs all 5s, 800 on all subject tests, sport, orchestra, 2 major leadership positions, extensive volunteering, original research at University, internships at research labs, writing award and writing tutor, 3 foreign languages, excellent clubs and ECs, excellent LORs etc. denied to all colleges except one. Low SES with no advantages.

A black applicant with the above qualifications would have been admitted to all of the colleges. Depends on the race.

Agree. There are plenty of athletes, legacies, and non-black students who do not fit the above same criteria, but still get in.

Seems to me there should be concerned about the high acceptances of international students, as evidenced the article below from CC:


An interesting article at the Wall Street Journal notes that 975,000 international students are enrolled in US colleges and universities this year, up 10% from the year before. Since most of these are full-tuition students, they are attractive prospects for financially strapped US schools. But, it's making it more difficult for US and in-state students to be admitted.

The article focuses on University of California schools, who accepted 62% of in-state applicants last year - down from 84% four years earlier.

According to the article, the UC schools are the most affected. Most other state schools have held in-state admissions steady. (The article doesn't describe the effect on out-of-state US students. Presumably, a full-pay international student might be more desirable than a domestic student who would need financial aid.)

Declining state subsidies in California, UC administrators say, make it necessary to admit more full-pay international students to keep in-state tuition low.

More: http://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-pinch-university-of-california-home-state-admissions-1447650060

PP, it's the precise opposite. If we truly believe in the educational benefits of diversity, we need to bring in MANY MORE international students. 975,000 international students is but a token. I want my kids exposed to how the Chinese think, how Arabs speak, how Latin Americans dance, how Germans plan.

If you prefer a chauvinist approach ("only American students matter"), you are of course entitled to say so, but please add clarify that you don't really give a sh*t about diversity.

I fully believe that American universities should first educate American citizens. An educated citizenry benefits our education just as our first responsibility is jobs for our citizens not jobs for the world.

Very well said, and you prove my point: you don't believe in the supposed "educational benefits of diversity"

I fully believe that taxpayer dollars (and yes, taxpayer dollars do go to higher education) should first benefit our citizenry. That does not mean I am opposed to diversity. However, an educated populace should be our first goal, not educating others to benefit their populace at the expense of ours.

Sorry, I guess I should be a bit more clear.

Defenders of affirmative action often justify it on the basis that diversity is good for ALL the students in the classroom -- those are the so-called educational benefits of diversity.

They are saying diversity is good, even imperative, for the mainstream 90-95% of students admitted not because of AA (plus, of course, for the 5-10% admitted through AA).

Now, if you truly believe that, then you must advocate for MORE, not fewer, international students. They'd bring real diversity, which should be good for ALL the students in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe in the educational benefits of diversity, but we lose a lot of those benefits when students like the petulant protesters at Yale and Princeton insist on "safe spaces" and "affinity dorms" where they can self-segregate from the rest of the campus community. If racial and other groups are going to remove themselves to their silos, the point of diversity on campus starts gets lost because there isn't the mixture of experiences, thoughts and perspectives to challenge students' pre-conceived notions and enrich their education.

You do know that "affinity" dorms also include the Greeks and foreign language majors to name just a few that have nothing to do with skin color. Since you feel these self-segregate, I assume you want these outlawed too.

[Anonymous]

I find it disconcerting how prior generations fought so hard to end segregation and this generation is fighting so hard to bring it back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it disconcerting how prior generations fought so hard to end segregation and this generation is fighting so hard to bring it back.

SOME in this generation are clueless, like SOME in previous ones.

It's human nature.

The difference is, today's PC culture means people get fewer opportunities to be challenged and wise up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally know of at least 4 people (educated, upper middle class, normally Hillary voters) who are planning to vote for TRUMP. They have had it up to here with what they regard as URM/affirmative action bullshit. They see "meh" kids of black Big Law partners easily getting into selective colleges when other kids with much more stellar records are being rejected. White-skinned kids whose families have recently discovered their 25% Hispanic "heritage" are doing very well in early college acceptances also. You can't blame folks for playing a good hand, but the whole URM preference thing has become absurd. Other parents are tired of their kids being screwed.

Seconded. I work on the Hill and D friends who do not work in politics but otherwise have voted D straight ticket most of the time say this is a huge appeal of trump. Not even joking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally know of at least 4 people (educated, upper middle class, normally Hillary voters) who are planning to vote for TRUMP. They have had it up to here with what they regard as URM/affirmative action bullshit. They see "meh" kids of black Big Law partners easily getting into selective colleges when other kids with much more stellar records are being rejected. White-skinned kids whose families have recently discovered their 25% Hispanic "heritage" are doing very well in early college acceptances also. You can't blame folks for playing a good hand, but the whole URM preference thing has become absurd. Other parents are tired of their kids being screwed.

Seconded. I work on the Hill and D friends who do not work in politics but otherwise have voted D straight ticket most of the time say this is a huge appeal of trump. Not even joking.

What's URM?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it disconcerting how prior generations fought so hard to end segregation and this generation is fighting so hard to bring it back.

I find it hard to believe how someone could make such an imbecilic statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it disconcerting how prior generations fought so hard to end segregation and this generation is fighting so hard to bring it back.

I find it hard to believe how someone could make such an imbecilic statement.

What's imbecilic, imbecilic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...and, in addition to that, studies have shown that grades are more indicative of success then test scores.

If you're interested in how well test score predict college performance:

http://www.isironline.org/isir-2015-invited-address-paul-sackett-nathan-kuncel/

They have a dataset that show that test scores predict academic performance quite well, and do so regardless of race, SES and gender. The sample size was 1.2 million college students.

This has been refuted. High SAT scores are correlated to high SES. When I get a moment, I will post. Especially, when it comes to LSAT and bar passage rates.

No, this hasn't been refuted. It's a brand new study with 1.2 million participants (college board data). Most of other studies were very small sample size or were manipulated to get the results the author wanted. Watch the presentation, it's very illuminating.

What will it prove? That only kids with high SAT scores should go to college? That only a subset of our population deserve to be there? That colleges should only use test scores for admission? That our society is better if we only employ people who scored well? Please - illuminate me.

Yes? Do you think everybody is college material?

Depends on the race.

Non-black applicant with 2370 SAT, 4.0 and 4.6 gpa, 12+ APs all 5s, 800 on all subject tests, sport, orchestra, 2 major leadership positions, extensive volunteering, original research at University, internships at research labs, writing award and writing tutor, 3 foreign languages, excellent clubs and ECs, excellent LORs etc. denied to all colleges except one. Low SES with no advantages.

A black applicant with the above qualifications would have been admitted to all of the colleges. Depends on the race.

I don't believe the above for a second. Bullshit. Name? Details?

Why don't you believe it. Even more impressive accomplishments were left out for privacy reasons.

That's bullshit. If you read this thread, you would believe that black students make up 50% of ivy leagues schools, when in fact, it's less then 5%. The reason that kid didn't get in had nothing to do with a black student taking his place. Maybe the kid was weird or a dud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally know of at least 4 people (educated, upper middle class, normally Hillary voters) who are planning to vote for TRUMP. They have had it up to here with what they regard as URM/affirmative action bullshit. They see "meh" kids of black Big Law partners easily getting into selective colleges when other kids with much more stellar records are being rejected. White-skinned kids whose families have recently discovered their 25% Hispanic "heritage" are doing very well in early college acceptances also. You can't blame folks for playing a good hand, but the whole URM preference thing has become absurd. Other parents are tired of their kids being screwed.

Again, this is bs. Students of color make up such a small percentage of students. You would think that we made up the majority. We aren't taking away your seats. If all of you look alike on paper, the school doesn't want all of you. Do something different. Talk about entitlement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it disconcerting how prior generations fought so hard to end segregation and this generation is fighting so hard to bring it back.

I find it hard to believe how someone could make such an imbecilic statement.

What's imbecilic, imbecilic?

It's so ignorant and devoid of history, that it's sad AND idiotic. According to Scalia, we should be segregated and go to "lesser schools." We are trying to integrate. You won't let us. That mere 4% at UT seems to upset you greatly.