JKLM residents are killing elementaries in lower NW

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

Amen

I agree. Do you know how much st Columbas costs?! These schools are not cheap. We bought a tiny house most people on here would call a "shit shack" and we live a modest life. Why are you counting my coins and saying I should pay up because of where I live? How do you know I wouldn't be involved in whatever school I would be in for however long I was there?

This is getting out of hand. PP, you do not have to explain yourself to these people, disclose your income or the value of your house. You live in DC and have access to all DC schools (I don't know why other PP had issue with W3 mom going to Appletree when it is citywide charter and only goes to PK4. Anyway, I live EOTP and attend a non-immersion charter. Many families bolt once hey get in via lottery to JKLM or language schools so I know the feeling. We all have to do what's best for our kids and prepare our kids for the transient city that we live in. My kid is in 1st grade and has lost almost 10 classmates alone in last two years out of state (not counting the JKLM/language kids moving). Also, I agree, my EOTP family earns above median for Ward 3 and I would be furious if anyone tried to cut off access or talk shit about me taking a citywide PK spot. Either PS/PK is going to be only FARM eligible or it's going to be citywide for ALL. One city. I will never justify why I don't spend $20k for private whether I have it or not.

Thank you for this sane comment from the other side of the park.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are right, I do find the self-righteousness displayed on this thread very annoying. And I'm also concerned about the hostility we might encounter when we start preK this fall, about which I frankly had no idea until I happened upon this thread. I do hope that OP and her supporters don't represent the majority of parents EOTP.

Of course the loudest people on DCUM aren't representative of the normal people you'll meet in real life. Welcome to the internet.

That said, would you really be surprised if other parents are more interested in building stronger friendships with the people who plan to keep their children enrolled at the school?

Yeah. This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are right, I do find the self-righteousness displayed on this thread very annoying. And I'm also concerned about the hostility we might encounter when we start preK this fall, about which I frankly had no idea until I happened upon this thread. I do hope that OP and her supporters don't represent the majority of parents EOTP.

Of course the loudest people on DCUM aren't representative of the normal people you'll meet in real life. Welcome to the internet.

That said, would you really be surprised if other parents are more interested in building stronger friendships with the people who plan to keep their children enrolled at the school?

No, of course I wouldn't be surprised, and that's not what I'm talking about. I will also be more interested in building friendships with the people at my IB school, but I would treat anyone else with the same friendliness and respect. This thread makes me think that some people wouldn't do the same with the OOB parents from Ward 3, but I will assume that OP is not voicing a widespread sentiment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

Amen

I agree. Do you know how much st Columbas costs?! These schools are not cheap. We bought a tiny house most people on here would call a "shit shack" and we live a modest life. Why are you counting my coins and saying I should pay up because of where I live? How do you know I wouldn't be involved in whatever school I would be in for however long I was there?

This is getting out of hand. PP, you do not have to explain yourself to these people, disclose your income or the value of your house. You live in DC and have access to all DC schools (I don't know why other PP had issue with W3 mom going to Appletree when it is citywide charter and only goes to PK4. Anyway, I live EOTP and attend a non-immersion charter. Many families bolt once hey get in via lottery to JKLM or language schools so I know the feeling. We all have to do what's best for our kids and prepare our kids for the transient city that we live in. My kid is in 1st grade and has lost almost 10 classmates alone in last two years out of state (not counting the JKLM/language kids moving). Also, I agree, my EOTP family earns above median for Ward 3 and I would be furious if anyone tried to cut off access or talk shit about me taking a citywide PK spot. Either PS/PK is going to be only FARM eligible or it's going to be citywide for ALL. One city. I will never justify why I don't spend $20k for private whether I have it or not.

This sums it up. Can we now let this thread die and have the Ward 3 haters crawl back under their rocks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Repeating this argument ad nauseam doesn't make it more convincing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Easy peasy! To minimize churn and school-hopping, simply stop the gentrification you're part of!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

Exactly. EOTP poster from above here. Let's be honest, in charters and average EOTP schools many families east and west of the park play the merry-go-round. They stay for the moment and move on the moment something better comes along. Placing your frustration on WOTP families (who quite honestly account for less than a few % of kids in these schools) is useless. I know OOB families that leave Takoma for Powell, Powell for Shepherd and Shepherd for Lafayette. Many of my friends and neighbors that have 4th graders and above are on their 3rd or 4th school. Are they constantly searching for greener grass, are they securing middle school or are they simply moving because the reading scores are 5% better than current? Probably a little bit of all three or more. All families with resources do this if they don't get into their top school right away (and even some change their top school and still leave)! I can't underscore this enough. Your frustration is completely misguided, you should be meeting with fellow tier 2/rising school leaders to work on how you address attrition rates at your school and stop wasting your time debating a useless point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

Actionable no, but morally defensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

np here (well, I posted much eariler in this thread). I, along with others, do think it is a valid and defensible complaint. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Long-term impact on a neighborhood school is one of the things you should consider before you enroll yoru child for a year or two at a school. Our voices have also spoken out "over and over" in this thread too. You can't claim consensus. I did send my kid to private prek when I lived wotp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

np here (well, I posted much eariler in this thread). I, along with others, do think it is a valid and defensible complaint. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Long-term impact on a neighborhood school is one of the things you should consider before you enroll yoru child for a year or two at a school. Our voices have also spoken out "over and over" in this thread too. You can't claim consensus. I did send my kid to private prek when I lived wotp.

I'm an EOTP parent at an EOTP DCPS, and my problem with this thread is the assumption that EOTP parents aren't doing this too. I know so many people who play the lottery and move after a year or two at their neighborhood school. The problem for neighborhood schools is not WOTP parents--it is that in an era of school choice, where it is relatively easy to move from one school to another, especially if you play the lottery year after year, people who are pretty happy with a school get into another by luck and go to that other school. That means that people who would be really committed to a neighborhood school are leaving because they get into a demonstrably better school.

I don't have any problem with people enrolling at our school from other parts of the city, even if they know it is just for a year or two, but I do wish that those people would be active in the PTA and in the school. I do feel like, because they know they are short-timers, they don't commit to our school in the way they will to their inbounds school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

Actionable no, but morally defensible.

No, it's not morally defensible, and that has been explained as well. Just because the current practice of some WOTP kids lotterying into EOTP PreK (which, we shall remind you, is by no means widespread) isn't as desirable for your school as the hypothetical scenario of kids enrolling instead of them whose parents commit to and improve the school long-term (see the reasonable EOTP poster above on how hypothetical that is) doesn't mean you have moral grounds to try to exclude these children based on where they live. You can either abolish the OOB lottery all together, or you must welcome anyone who contributes to the school even if just for a limited time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

we bought in Upper NW five years ago, when we were priced out of Mt. Pleasant, the desirable parts of the Hill, U Street and Shaw

Where could this be? ^^^

Why do you need to know? Do you think I'm lying? There obviously weren't too many such opportunities available back then either, but they did exist during that phase after the 2008 crisis. Point being, you cannot generalize that anyone who owns a home and has small kids must have paid over 800K and be rich. There are small homes WOTP, some in crappy condition, and people on budgets equivalent to those of people EOTP have bought here. And even some of the people who did pay that much may be house poor, and it's not for anyone to judge whether or not they should have put themselves into that situation, and whether they must now suck up private preschool as well.

+1. We bought a fixer upper at the bottom of the market and have slowly been fixing ever since. Not everything in Ward 3 is above 800K. But like someone else wisely said, we do not need to explain ourselves. It is called PUBLIC school for a reason. All DC residents have access to it if they so wish. We all pay taxes. IB kids have preference, what do you care where I send my kids to school? If I drive from Palisades to Columbia Heights every morning is my problem.

I care because you are displacing student(s) and family(s) who could be making a long-term commitment to that school, which is the only way schools EOTP will improve. We need to minimize churn and school-hopping.

Just give it a rest. It's been explained to you over and over again why this complaint is neither valid nor actionable in any defensible way.

np here (well, I posted much eariler in this thread). I, along with others, do think it is a valid and defensible complaint. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Long-term impact on a neighborhood school is one of the things you should consider before you enroll yoru child for a year or two at a school. Our voices have also spoken out "over and over" in this thread too. You can't claim consensus. I did send my kid to private prek when I lived wotp.

I'm an EOTP parent at an EOTP DCPS, and my problem with this thread is the assumption that EOTP parents aren't doing this too. I know so many people who play the lottery and move after a year or two at their neighborhood school. The problem for neighborhood schools is not WOTP parents--it is that in an era of school choice, where it is relatively easy to move from one school to another, especially if you play the lottery year after year, people who are pretty happy with a school get into another by luck and go to that other school. That means that people who would be really committed to a neighborhood school are leaving because they get into a demonstrably better school.

I don't have any problem with people enrolling at our school from other parts of the city, even if they know it is just for a year or two, but I do wish that those people would be active in the PTA and in the school. I do feel like, because they know they are short-timers, they don't commit to our school in the way they will to their inbounds school.

The difference is that many EOTP parents who enroll his/her child WOULD stay if the experience was good enough (or as good as any JKLM school). They do school shop and hop around BECAUSE the experience isn't that good. That is not true for your wotp pk3 and pk4ers. They will not stay even if the school they OB into is fantastic because they have a fantastic school with a neighbrohood community (something our eotp school won't ever be able to offer them) beginning at K. I do think this is a moral issue. Not big case Moral, but lower case moral. I wouldn't do it.

There was also a JKLM poster on here who had lotteried into Lamb at pk3 two years ago and were wondering if they should stay for K or move back to their fantastic neighborhood school. They liked Lamb a lot, no problems there. To me that is also a moral issue. You shoudln't have lotteried for Lamb unelss you imtended to stay since Lamb can't fill a spot after pk4.