Being lower middle class and living well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Report back after you are married and have kids.

This is a NP - of course things are going to change when OP has kids. However, her frugal ways will benefit her greatly once she is married with kids. I say this a frugal single parent. We are going just fine on an income that most of DCUM would find completely abysmal. OP will make it work because she knows how to be frugal and knows what is really important in life. Not money and material items.

And I'm certain her children will be frugal straight out of the womb, too.

not sure what this is supposed to mean. her kids will make the buying choices??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

This is what I would expect on 350k. Not sure why people complain about that HHI so frequently on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

This is what I would expect on 350k. Not sure why people complain about that HHI so frequently on DCUM.

If you don't have a large inheritence or windfall, 350K HHI can easily be eaten up by a house payment, childcare and private schools (if you are in a low performing school district).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

This is what I would expect on 350k. Not sure why people complain about that HHI so frequently on DCUM.

If you don't have a large inheritence or windfall, 350K HHI can easily be eaten up by a house payment, childcare and private schools (if you are in a low performing school district).

Well we live on 90k HHI - so if we stayed in our current house and current good public - 350k would be a windfall. It depends on the choices you make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

This is what I would expect on 350k. Not sure why people complain about that HHI so frequently on DCUM.

If you don't have a large inheritence or windfall, 350K HHI can easily be eaten up by a house payment, childcare and private schools (if you are in a low performing school district).

Well we live on 90k HHI - so if we stayed in our current house and current good public - 350k would be a windfall. It depends on the choices you make.

Please state the size of your home, type, childcare costs and location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

This is what I would expect on 350k. Not sure why people complain about that HHI so frequently on DCUM.

If you don't have a large inheritence or windfall, 350K HHI can easily be eaten up by a house payment, childcare and private schools (if you are in a low performing school district).

Well we live on 90k HHI - so if we stayed in our current house and current good public - 350k would be a windfall. It depends on the choices you make.

Please state the size of your home, type, childcare costs and location.

why so you can decide its not good enough? therefore justifying spending more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$600/month is exactly what I paid when my son was a baby/toddler (so that was 2005-2008). He is 9 yrs old now. This was a licensed in home daycare. I rent a basement apartment is a nice area in Montgomery County. Don't say it can't be done when people are doing it.

I also paid $150 for my now 9 year old and paid $175 for my now 6 year old. Yes, you can find a lower cost child care option. My in licensed in home care provider was in DC.

btw the cost now is $250 a week and in Takoma DC

You would be extremely lucky to find a decent in home provider with a good ratio at 250/week in dc. For an infant especially, the trust has to be there. The difficulty in finding affordable, high quality child care is no joke.

[Anonymous]

Why would that change anything? The conventional wisdom in fact is that if you want to save money, get married young. But sure, let's dissect this real quick.

Things that wouldn't change if I got married and had kids:
- Would still eat 99% home-cooked food and generic brands.
- Would still not buy alcohol.
- If my old car doesn't last then I'll buy a used car and use it the same way With what savings will you be buying this used "new to you" vehicle? You have hospital expenses, daycare expenses, and others to plan for.
- Same cheap $20/month phone plan
- Would still not pay for TV/cable.
- Would still hopefully have a job that pays all health and dental insurance for family. No, most employers will cover the individual only at 100% (if you are lucky) and the family or additional dependents are an added monthly out of pocket expense. This can cost as much as daycare alone- it does at my firm.

Things that would improve if I got married:
- Giant standard deduction from taxable income It is not as "Giant" as you think - especially not in relation to the amount of expenses you have going out for children.
- Tax credit for each kid I have See prior response.
- Tax-deductible contributions to a joint retirement savings account.
- If we buy and sell a home together, we don't have to pay taxes on the profit as long as it's not more than $500,000 True but this is a HUGE assertion. Again, when you DO buy a house, if you can afford it, exactly what amount of mortgage do you think you will qualify for on your income?? Let alone one that will appreciate and leave you with a profit.
- Could probably combine car insurance policies and get a discount. Bahahaha... yeah... I get a discount for going to grad school, having a great record, and being married. My total savings is so miniscule it's not even funny.

Things that would suck if I got married and had kids
- Having to pay more on living expenses, such as rent or mortgage, because I only have the DH's income to split it with as opposed to 4 roommates and plus I'd have to choose a slightly nicer apartment to make room for kid(s).
- Costs having a child. This is really the only major expense problem. So you start paying right from prenatal care to the actual birth in the hospital, then you lose income even on maternity leave, the clothes and car seat and baby food, etc. Plus I may need to start putting down at least $800 a month for the college fund. With your additional expenses including healthcare, childcare (have you even looked into this??), etc, you will be lucky to make monthly contributions to a college fund.

In any case that baby had better get good grades and wrangle some scholarship money! Public school and public university or I'm not paying. I went to public schools and it turned out great for me.

With my lifestyle habits and two incomes, why the hell can't I raise a child and still live well with my class/income level?

Good night for now!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$600/month is exactly what I paid when my son was a baby/toddler (so that was 2005-2008). He is 9 yrs old now. This was a licensed in home daycare. I rent a basement apartment is a nice area in Montgomery County. Don't say it can't be done when people are doing it.

I also paid $150 for my now 9 year old and paid $175 for my now 6 year old. Yes, you can find a lower cost child care option. My in licensed in home care provider was in DC.

btw the cost now is $250 a week and in Takoma DC

You would be extremely lucky to find a decent in home provider with a good ratio at 250/week in dc. For an infant especially, the trust has to be there. The difficulty in finding affordable, high quality child care is no joke.

[i]

This.
It's not JUST about the cost of the childcare. You have to trust your providers. We are very fortunate to have found a daycare center at 250/mo for an infant not in DC but on the border of MD/DC. We trust them and have been there since our child was an infant. Good places have long wait lists. And our center has not raised rates but has over an 18 month wait list. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$600/month is exactly what I paid when my son was a baby/toddler (so that was 2005-2008). He is 9 yrs old now. This was a licensed in home daycare. I rent a basement apartment is a nice area in Montgomery County. Don't say it can't be done when people are doing it.

I also paid $150 for my now 9 year old and paid $175 for my now 6 year old. Yes, you can find a lower cost child care option. My in licensed in home care provider was in DC.

btw the cost now is $250 a week and in Takoma DC

You would be extremely lucky to find a decent in home provider with a good ratio at 250/week in dc. For an infant especially, the trust has to be there. The difficulty in finding affordable, high quality child care is no joke.

[i]

This.
It's not JUST about the cost of the childcare. You have to trust your providers. We are very fortunate to have found a daycare center at 250/mo for an infant not in DC but on the border of MD/DC. We trust them and have been there since our child was an infant. Good places have long wait lists. And our center has not raised rates but has over an 18 month wait list. Good luck.

We paid more than we wanted because we wanted a place we loved and felt really comfortable with. Also we paid an extra year of daycare because child has mild special needs so we waited an extra year to start Kindergarten. And we are on the low end of HHI in the area. We pretty much went into debt knowing that eventually DD would start public school. Also we are only having one.

[Anonymous]

One of the wisest things my boss told me, that I've always remembered in a dozen years of working together, was when I got my first big promotion, which probably brought my salary up from $45,000 to $60,000 or so when I was about 25. He told me (to paraphrase), "You're never going to feel richer than you do right now. You'll make more money, you'll save more money, you'll spend more money on things you don't even notice. But this is the richest you'll ever feel."

He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just being honest based on his experience, and he was absolutely right.

I make twice that, but I'm married now and live in a house instead of a group house. I have two kids that I contribute to 529s for. I have preschool tuition to pay, it takes 3 (soon to be 4) plane tickets to get anywhere so it's as expensive to visit family across the country as it used to be for DW and I to jet all over the world.

OP, I offer the same advice to you. I'm glad you're enjoying your life! But try not to pass judgment - there are legitimate reasons why, financially, life can be tougher 10-15 years down the road even though you're making twice as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$600/month is exactly what I paid when my son was a baby/toddler (so that was 2005-2008). He is 9 yrs old now. This was a licensed in home daycare. I rent a basement apartment is a nice area in Montgomery County. Don't say it can't be done when people are doing it.

I also paid $150 for my now 9 year old and paid $175 for my now 6 year old. Yes, you can find a lower cost child care option. My in licensed in home care provider was in DC.

I think I paid similar from 10 y r old but looking back now, I can admit that I got what I paid for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the wisest things my boss told me, that I've always remembered in a dozen years of working together, was when I got my first big promotion, which probably brought my salary up from $45,000 to $60,000 or so when I was about 25. He told me (to paraphrase), "You're never going to feel richer than you do right now. You'll make more money, you'll save more money, you'll spend more money on things you don't even notice. But this is the richest you'll ever feel."

He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just being honest based on his experience, and he was absolutely right.

I make twice that, but I'm married now and live in a house instead of a group house. I have two kids that I contribute to 529s for. I have preschool tuition to pay, it takes 3 (soon to be 4) plane tickets to get anywhere so it's as expensive to visit family across the country as it used to be for DW and I to jet all over the world.

OP, I offer the same advice to you. I'm glad you're enjoying your life! But try not to pass judgment - there are legitimate reasons why, financially, life can be tougher 10-15 years down the road even though you're making twice as much.

I agree with you. On the flip side some of the posters with high HHI should think before they speak. There are people living on much less in this area and doing fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the wisest things my boss told me, that I've always remembered in a dozen years of working together, was when I got my first big promotion, which probably brought my salary up from $45,000 to $60,000 or so when I was about 25. He told me (to paraphrase), "You're never going to feel richer than you do right now. You'll make more money, you'll save more money, you'll spend more money on things you don't even notice. But this is the richest you'll ever feel."

He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just being honest based on his experience, and he was absolutely right.

I make twice that, but I'm married now and live in a house instead of a group house. I have two kids that I contribute to 529s for. I have preschool tuition to pay, it takes 3 (soon to be 4) plane tickets to get anywhere so it's as expensive to visit family across the country as it used to be for DW and I to jet all over the world.

OP, I offer the same advice to you. I'm glad you're enjoying your life! But try not to pass judgment - there are legitimate reasons why, financially, life can be tougher 10-15 years down the road even though you're making twice as much.

I agree with you. On the flip side some of the posters with high HHI should think before they speak. There are people living on much less in this area and doing fine.

This is a poorly understood idea. Once you hit a certain threshold your tax rates get higher and you lose a lot of deductions. Take home pay percentages is severely reduced in comparison with lower incomes at a certain point. If you make 200K-300k a year it will be very apparent, at 1 million not so much.

[Anonymous]

OP, you don't have to justify your choices. It's laughable that people may worship eating out so much! LOL