NYT Times interview with Brian Kohlberger’s sister

[Anonymous]

None of you going on and on about the family have made a compelling case that the family should have known. And many of you are stating things that are outright wrong.

Don't quit your day jobs, folks. You suck at this.

[Anonymous]

The murders happened a few weeks before Thanksgiving (Nov 13). He was arrested Dec 30, 7 weeks later. I don't know how often he called his mom early morning (once a week? once every 3 months?).

People just aren't processing this how it all happened in real time. Brian calls and talks to mom about the usual stuff (what's your recipe for mashed potatoes, how is Aunt Fran, is it going to snow in PA, I'm feeling a little depressed but it will be good to see Dad and ride home with him for Christmas).

The sister heard about the murder shortly afterward, but we don't know that the mom did. And even if she did hear, she certainly wouldn't think, hmm didn't Brian call me 3 days ago to ask about Aunt Fran - I wonder if he was involved in that murder out west?

The Elantra wasn't mentioned to the public until December. I know this case was off my radar by then and I never heard it was a white Elantra until after his arrest when I read more about it.

Again, even if on Dec 10, the mother happened to hear they were looking for a 2011-2013 white Elantra, by then she had probably had 3 or 4 weeks of normal (whatever that is for them) phone calls with Brian and why would she think, hmm, his white Elantra is 2015, but maybe the police are wrong, and Brian did this crime!

Info is coming in bits and pieces, mixed in with "normal" family plans, such as Dad was already going to fly out to help with the long drive, won't it be nice to have all the kids home for Christmas, what should I put on the menu.

My family puts the newer cars and the ones we plan to drive in winter weather in the garage, a PP said they keep the car they are going to drive in the driveway for easy access in the winter. Different families do different things with cars using the garage vs the driveway and neither makes anyone think "obvious murder suspect".

Putting Brian's car in the garage isn't going to make me think back 2 or 5 phone calls ago in mid November and then check my phone records and look up the crime date and say, hmmm, sure is suspicious Brian called me 5 weeks ago on the same date as that murder to ask for a recipe.

You are planning Christmas, your son with a challenging past just finished a successful semester in the PhD program, life is good.

And it wasn't like local police identified Brian as a suspect, laid out the reasons why he might be guilty and the parents and family were processing it. I'll bet by the time they arrived in PA from the *planned* road trip, this murder was a distant memory for the family.

And if I saw Brian doing any quirky behaviors I would write it off as ASD, but be thankful he's functional enough to be doing well in a grad program.

Now if Brian had been accused as a teenager of stalking women or been arrested for pulling a knife on a cashier, or had broken into people's houses, maybe it would have crossed my mind?

But just an overweight ASD kid who was bullied, got addicted to drugs, beat the addiction, successfully graduated from nearby DeSales University, as his mom, I'm thinking we supported him through some hard years, but it's time for him to take the next step to independence. I am not going to be tying 3 unrelated clues and concluding - my son is a suspect.

While he was at DeSales, his criminology professor recommended him for the PhD program and said in 10 years, she had only recommended 2 students for PhD, and Brian was brilliant and one of her best students ever.

Also while at DeSales, he studied under Katherine Ramsland, an expert on serial killers and a big name in the crime world who helped the BTK killer write his autobiography.

Both these women knew Brian and knew he was at WSU next to the university where the students were killed and neither of them honed in on Brian.

But the mom is supposed to take unrelated facts (to her at the time) and not only conclude her son was the murderer, but that the police were wrong on the year of the car.

I feel bad for parents and families who will forever be looked at by the public as "they must have known and they helped cover it up". I feel worse for the victim's families, but I wouldn't want to be in either of their places.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

You'd be suspicious that he stabbed four college kids in the middle of the night? Really? It would be extremely hard for me to believe that anyone I was related to or close friends with had committed this crime unless I'd seen them be violent before. This is a very, very heinous crime. I can't imagine anyone doing this, not even the oddest or most troubled person I know. It is unfathomable.

I'm still confused why you find an apparent lack of prior violent behavior to be suggestive of innocence.

If this was a domestic violence situation, or some sort of heat-of-the-moment attack, then sure. Maybe even if it looked like some sort of revenge killing. But it never looked like that. It quickly looked like a planned murder of people chosen opportunistically and somewhat randomly.

I wouldn't expect such a murderer to have an openly violent history. I would expect them to look something more like a sociopath.

PP here. I don't think his lack of prior violent behavior is proof of his innocence. I don't think he's innocent. He pled guilty. His DNA was at the crime scene. His car was seen at the crime scene. He ordered a knife matching the murder weapon prior to the murder. He did it.

But I only know all that because I am NOW privy to details from the investigation. The family didn't know any of that. All they knew is that some college kids who lived somewhere in the vicinity of Brian were murdered and that both the killer and Brian drove a similar, fairly nondescript vehicle. And that Brian had never physically harmed anyone before. They didn't know about the knife. He had no connection to these kids at all. His behavior was the same as it always was -- weird but normal *for Brian*.

The idea that they should have suspected he was the killer when he had ZERO history of violent behavior and the only connection the family could possibly have made was a car that I'm sure did not seem terribly unusual to them is a huge leap. You don't discount of a lifetime of knowing, living with, even fighting with and being exasperated by a person you have never been known to be physically violent, and suddenly suspect they are a murderer because they also drive a similar but pretty nondescript white sedan.

He's guilty, and also it is unreasonable to expect his family on the other side of the country to have figured that out before or even at the same time as the police who were investigating the crime, given his lack of connection to the victims and, at the time, the total lack of public evidence connecting Brian specifically to the crime.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not understanding the hate for BK family. Even if he was a weirdo and possibly violent wtf were they supposed to do about it? You can’t jail a psychopath prior to the crime. And it’s debatable his parents had any clue since the people article mentions he called his mother regularly so not sure that him chatting with her on the phone that day proves absolutely anything. The judgment here is disgusting.

Don't be naive. It was 6am. Of course she knew. It's understandable they didn't know what would happen, but they certainly knew it after it happened.

He apparently frequently called his mom as early as 4 am. I think it's odd behavior, but it doesn't sound like it was out of the ordinary for him at all.

+1, he was obviously a troubled guy who engaged in some strange or frustrating behavior, but it's wild some people seem to to think that if you had a son call you at 6am, your first thought would be "oh my kid you murdered someone." Of course it wouldn't be, even if you knew your son had problems.

The sister explains that the killer had troubles galore (including heroin addiction), but had never been violent.

I'm no criminal psychologist, but the nature of the murder doesn't strike me as the type that would come from someone openly violent in everyday life.

The sister is also not a criminal psychologist. She's not an FBI profiler. She's a mental health counselor. It didn't occur to her that her brother, who had never hurt anyone before, would murder four people in cold blood. In fact her first response upon hearing about the murders was to worry that her brother, who sometimes doesn't have it all that together, might be targeted by the person who murdered people near his home. That is the most normal and predictable response if your totally non-violent brother lived near the site of a violent murder.

There have been other murders where the family *did* suspect their family member pretty early on. In those cases, there is almost always a violent history with the family member. In most cases the family member will have threatened or even harmed someone else in the family before. There is often a criminal history of assault or DV.

But you are telling me that if a family member who had never done anything violent before, ever (and the fact that Brian had no history of violence is backed up not only by his family but by friends, classmates, teachers, school records, employers, etc.) lived near the scene of a violent murder and drove an extremely common car that had some features in common with the killer's car, you would assume the family member was the murderer?

I do not think you would.

This totally non violent brother was arrested for stealing her phone for drugs and had been in and out of rehab for a heroin addiction. He’s not your average brother. Also called his parents “Mother” and “Father”. Something was very off about him.

I am the PP. I have a brother with addiction issues. He has some unhealthy and weird habits and I am aware he has mental health issues. But he has never yelled at me, tried to physically harm me, or done either of those to anyone in our family or to anyone else that I know of.

I feel like you don't understand how many people have the exact problems this guy had and never hurt anyone. The world is full of troubled people and most of them never even commit assault much less a cold-blooded murder of four strangers. It would never occur to me that anyone I knew had done this specific crime.

Nobody is saying that people with this profile will hurt someone. But the fact that this guy, with all his baggage, acted so strangely around that time. Odd phone calls, needing to leave ASAP, hide the car, some people might get suspicious if you were being honest.

But your additional “proof” the family should have know or did know is y a tialj true, so wha now? I would wager there were many many aloof and weird brothers with a history of drug use in the 2 miles surrounding the terrible crimes. Do you think all the families of those men should have suspected their previously no violent offense brothers?

Not that drove white Elantras. And not who suddenly wanted to get their Elantra out of town right after the police announced they were looking for one.

And again, I still view violent history as a negative signal. This never looked like a set of murders from a person with an openly violent history.

Again, this did NOT happen. He told his family about his plan to drive home and pick up stuff MONTHS in advance. He planned to drive it back again! I genuinely do not understand why people think driving a car across the country is the best way to HIDE it. He LITERALLY got stopped by police en route!

Is that true? That would change my thoughts on this if it is. Where did you see the drive was planned for months?

Also, I think you're going down the wrong track regarding the risk. Under the circumstances, they didn't seem to know whose car they were looking for. Yes, if they have a plate number, driving it cross country would be a terrible idea. But that wasn't the risk. The risk was that police in the Moscow/Pullman area would see the white Elantra, run the plates, and add him to a list of people to dig into.

So, a white Elantra appearing in, say, South Dakota, doesn't mean anything. But a white Elantra in the Pullman/Moscow area would be significant.

[Anonymous]

The true-crime weirdos have found the thread. I'm guessing most of whom are not even from DCUM.

This is why Jeff typically doesn't allow true crime posts - brings in too many strange people.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

I agree with this. It was the wrong model. Of course the family was probably like, oh phew. If he drove a gray Elantra or a Toyota that looked like a white Hyundai would you also expect them to assume the police had it wrong and be suspicious anyway?

Cars often don't change their looks between years, so I would never assume the year implied specificity.

And honestly, I'd assume the same thing regarding color. White vs black or blue? No. White vs light grey? Yes.

Lol, you would never assume the actual years put out by law enforcement, 2011-2013, implied specificity? Then why would they have put out specific years? You have to be trolling at this point, because that argument is nonsensical.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Brian's stare and his eyes/focus are very strange. There's no way he didn't demonstrate odd behaviors before any heroin-related issues. We haven't heard if he received any psychological, medical, or special ed support as a child. If not, either parents didn't agree to needed services or his educational settings were very neglectful.

I mean, he certainly wasn't the only undiagnosed and untreated kid with ASD. Unfortunate, yes. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say neglectful, in part because there isn't much that treatment can do.

Admittedly, I work for a large, well funded school system. Our teachers notice and refer kids in kindergarten and first grade with similar or even less odd behaviors than Brian displayed. I have a hard time believing no one noticed or documented those behaviors and that he was allowed to attend college with no supports.

What do you mean by “allowed”?

Do you believe that the colleges give a mandatory psychological exam to all admitted students and then decide who should be required to use “supports”? It’s on students to request accommodations if they need them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:None of you going on and on about the family have made a compelling case that the family should have known. And many of you are stating things that are outright wrong.

Don't quit your day jobs, folks. You suck at this.

I feel like people do this so they can feel control over these uncommon, headline grabbing incidents and tell themselves it could never happen to them. This killer was a heroin addict, so not particularly unforseen that he might become violent under the right conditions, but in other cases, the killer is just a run of the mill misfit or loser.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

I agree with this. It was the wrong model. Of course the family was probably like, oh phew. If he drove a gray Elantra or a Toyota that looked like a white Hyundai would you also expect them to assume the police had it wrong and be suspicious anyway?

Cars often don't change their looks between years, so I would never assume the year implied specificity.

And honestly, I'd assume the same thing regarding color. White vs black or blue? No. White vs light grey? Yes.

Lol, you would never assume the actual years put out by law enforcement, 2011-2013, implied specificity? Then why would they have put out specific years? You have to be trolling at this point, because that argument is nonsensical.

Remember a few years ago when the police were looking for a white panel van with a ladder rack? Are you suggesting everyone that saw a white panel van without a ladder rack said "I'm cool with it."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The murders happened a few weeks before Thanksgiving (Nov 13). He was arrested Dec 30, 7 weeks later. I don't know how often he called his mom early morning (once a week? once every 3 months?).

People just aren't processing this how it all happened in real time. Brian calls and talks to mom about the usual stuff (what's your recipe for mashed potatoes, how is Aunt Fran, is it going to snow in PA, I'm feeling a little depressed but it will be good to see Dad and ride home with him for Christmas).

The sister heard about the murder shortly afterward, but we don't know that the mom did. And even if she did hear, she certainly wouldn't think, hmm didn't Brian call me 3 days ago to ask about Aunt Fran - I wonder if he was involved in that murder out west?

The Elantra wasn't mentioned to the public until December. I know this case was off my radar by then and I never heard it was a white Elantra until after his arrest when I read more about it.

Again, even if on Dec 10, the mother happened to hear they were looking for a 2011-2013 white Elantra, by then she had probably had 3 or 4 weeks of normal (whatever that is for them) phone calls with Brian and why would she think, hmm, his white Elantra is 2015, but maybe the police are wrong, and Brian did this crime!

Info is coming in bits and pieces, mixed in with "normal" family plans, such as Dad was already going to fly out to help with the long drive, won't it be nice to have all the kids home for Christmas, what should I put on the menu.

My family puts the newer cars and the ones we plan to drive in winter weather in the garage, a PP said they keep the car they are going to drive in the driveway for easy access in the winter. Different families do different things with cars using the garage vs the driveway and neither makes anyone think "obvious murder suspect".

Putting Brian's car in the garage isn't going to make me think back 2 or 5 phone calls ago in mid November and then check my phone records and look up the crime date and say, hmmm, sure is suspicious Brian called me 5 weeks ago on the same date as that murder to ask for a recipe.

You are planning Christmas, your son with a challenging past just finished a successful semester in the PhD program, life is good.

And it wasn't like local police identified Brian as a suspect, laid out the reasons why he might be guilty and the parents and family were processing it. I'll bet by the time they arrived in PA from the *planned* road trip, this murder was a distant memory for the family.

And if I saw Brian doing any quirky behaviors I would write it off as ASD, but be thankful he's functional enough to be doing well in a grad program.

Now if Brian had been accused as a teenager of stalking women or been arrested for pulling a knife on a cashier, or had broken into people's houses, maybe it would have crossed my mind?

But just an overweight ASD kid who was bullied, got addicted to drugs, beat the addiction, successfully graduated from nearby DeSales University, as his mom, I'm thinking we supported him through some hard years, but it's time for him to take the next step to independence. I am not going to be tying 3 unrelated clues and concluding - my son is a suspect.

While he was at DeSales, his criminology professor recommended him for the PhD program and said in 10 years, she had only recommended 2 students for PhD, and Brian was brilliant and one of her best students ever.

Also while at DeSales, he studied under Katherine Ramsland, an expert on serial killers and a big name in the crime world who helped the BTK killer write his autobiography.

Both these women knew Brian and knew he was at WSU next to the university where the students were killed and neither of them honed in on Brian.

But the mom is supposed to take unrelated facts (to her at the time) and not only conclude her son was the murderer, but that the police were wrong on the year of the car.

I feel bad for parents and families who will forever be looked at by the public as "they must have known and they helped cover it up". I feel worse for the victim's families, but I wouldn't want to be in either of their places.

All of this. This thread is actually making me feel more empathy for Brian's family than the NYT interview did, because these posts are ridiculous. The family quite obviously didn't have any idea Brian might be involved in this case until the police broke down their door and arrested him. One of the things that makes this case so shocking is that there is just NOTHING to indicate why Brian did this. Nothing. We just have no idea what prompted this guy to buy a knife, go to this group house 15 minutes from his house, and stab four college kids to death. It's really unsettling, I wonder if Brian even really knows why he did this. I'm really grateful to the cops who figured this out and I'm glad he didn't drag it out and plead innocent and now he's behind bars and at least whatever led to him doing this again won't result in more deaths.

But it's actually just a really awful, tragic case. Maybe we'll never know why he did it. Maybe one day we'll find out and it won't offer anyone any solace anyway -- what possible reason could he have that would make this all fall into place? I'm kind of guessing he had a psychotic break, that he may be schizophrenic or have another severe mental health disorder. It's very scary but it's been known to happen. Just awful. I'm sure his family will feel guilt and be thinking back over his entire life looking for clues for the rest of their lives. His sisters will wonder if whatever happened inside Brian to make him do this could happen to them. It must be very hard. Not taking anything away from the families of the actual victims, my heart just aches for them. But Brian's family has their own cross to bear here and I have empathy for them as well. They too will have to live with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

I agree with this. It was the wrong model. Of course the family was probably like, oh phew. If he drove a gray Elantra or a Toyota that looked like a white Hyundai would you also expect them to assume the police had it wrong and be suspicious anyway?

Cars often don't change their looks between years, so I would never assume the year implied specificity.

And honestly, I'd assume the same thing regarding color. White vs black or blue? No. White vs light grey? Yes.

Lol, you would never assume the actual years put out by law enforcement, 2011-2013, implied specificity? Then why would they have put out specific years? You have to be trolling at this point, because that argument is nonsensical.

Remember a few years ago when the police were looking for a white panel van with a ladder rack? Are you suggesting everyone that saw a white panel van without a ladder rack said "I'm cool with it."

Terrible deflection, the example of the sniper vehicle description is not applicable to an argument about whether people living across the country should have known/suspected their son was the killer because he drove the same make and model, but different year, of the common place vehicle that was identified as a vehicle of interest.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

You'd be suspicious that he stabbed four college kids in the middle of the night? Really? It would be extremely hard for me to believe that anyone I was related to or close friends with had committed this crime unless I'd seen them be violent before. This is a very, very heinous crime. I can't imagine anyone doing this, not even the oddest or most troubled person I know. It is unfathomable.

Yet it happened, suggesting your imagination shouldn't be trusted.

I don't know how you wouldn't suspect it, if/once you're able to look at things more objectively.

You're right year was a little off. When they release an announcement that they're looking for a car, the year is regularly off, so I would always take the year as a rough guess. So at least from my perspective, the car alone would be enough to start having to think about him- even if he was a friend or brother- as a credible suspect. Even if it is initially from the perspective of how the police might rightly or wrongly narrow in on him.

The idea that is would be unfathomable to you is, frankly, unfathomable to me.

You’re looking at this with the benefit of what we know now. All the family knew at the time was that he was weird, he called mom super early in the am (something that wasn’t weird for him, even if it would be for other people), and drove a very common car from a different year than what the police said they were looking for.

It's really not that common of a car. I recognize I may be taking for granted that everyone would similarly view the model year as rough, but if you do that, it suddenly puts them in a very small set.

Again, this wasn't the DMV or New York. This was a pretty rural area of Washington/Idaho. The population isn't that large. Having a matching car is suspicious. At least enough to start to worry about what the police might think. And that's when the other things that might otherwise look benign would stop looking benign.

Admittedly, I can't shake my own bias regarding the time. I know the reports say he would call as early as 4am. But I have a mental block there. As a non-morning person, anyone who would willingly be awake at that time seems highly suspicious. I know that sounds like a joke. I know it's ridiculous. But I don't think I can stop myself from thinking it...

I wouldn't be surprised if the mom had never visited out west and had no idea if it was rural or a medium city. She certainly wouldn't be calculating the rarity of a certain make and model for a town of whatever size. If you ever get on a jury, remember that you have a bias when something isn't normal for *you*.

I'm a normal, stable person with worked for the same company since college and work started at 5:30 am for me. Know who else was a morning person - my dad. He was up at 5am because that's when the newspaper was delivered to his assisted living and at least once a week for 7 years I called him at 5am because it was the best time for us to talk, while I commuted on the empty interstate. It's not suspicious. It's what plenty of normal people do.

Oh the other hand, my mom was up until at least 2am almost every night (they're divorced). I didn't think twice about calling or texting her at 1am if I happened to be up and needed to ask her something. If you know your family's habits, it's not odd to call at 1am or 5am.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not understanding the hate for BK family. Even if he was a weirdo and possibly violent wtf were they supposed to do about it? You can’t jail a psychopath prior to the crime. And it’s debatable his parents had any clue since the people article mentions he called his mother regularly so not sure that him chatting with her on the phone that day proves absolutely anything. The judgment here is disgusting.

Don't be naive. It was 6am. Of course she knew. It's understandable they didn't know what would happen, but they certainly knew it after it happened.

He apparently frequently called his mom as early as 4 am. I think it's odd behavior, but it doesn't sound like it was out of the ordinary for him at all.

+1, he was obviously a troubled guy who engaged in some strange or frustrating behavior, but it's wild some people seem to to think that if you had a son call you at 6am, your first thought would be "oh my kid you murdered someone." Of course it wouldn't be, even if you knew your son had problems.

The sister explains that the killer had troubles galore (including heroin addiction), but had never been violent.

I'm no criminal psychologist, but the nature of the murder doesn't strike me as the type that would come from someone openly violent in everyday life.

The sister is also not a criminal psychologist. She's not an FBI profiler. She's a mental health counselor. It didn't occur to her that her brother, who had never hurt anyone before, would murder four people in cold blood. In fact her first response upon hearing about the murders was to worry that her brother, who sometimes doesn't have it all that together, might be targeted by the person who murdered people near his home. That is the most normal and predictable response if your totally non-violent brother lived near the site of a violent murder.

There have been other murders where the family *did* suspect their family member pretty early on. In those cases, there is almost always a violent history with the family member. In most cases the family member will have threatened or even harmed someone else in the family before. There is often a criminal history of assault or DV.

But you are telling me that if a family member who had never done anything violent before, ever (and the fact that Brian had no history of violence is backed up not only by his family but by friends, classmates, teachers, school records, employers, etc.) lived near the scene of a violent murder and drove an extremely common car that had some features in common with the killer's car, you would assume the family member was the murderer?

I do not think you would.

This totally non violent brother was arrested for stealing her phone for drugs and had been in and out of rehab for a heroin addiction. He’s not your average brother. Also called his parents “Mother” and “Father”. Something was very off about him.

I am the PP. I have a brother with addiction issues. He has some unhealthy and weird habits and I am aware he has mental health issues. But he has never yelled at me, tried to physically harm me, or done either of those to anyone in our family or to anyone else that I know of.

I feel like you don't understand how many people have the exact problems this guy had and never hurt anyone. The world is full of troubled people and most of them never even commit assault much less a cold-blooded murder of four strangers. It would never occur to me that anyone I knew had done this specific crime.

Nobody is saying that people with this profile will hurt someone. But the fact that this guy, with all his baggage, acted so strangely around that time. Odd phone calls, needing to leave ASAP, hide the car, some people might get suspicious if you were being honest.

But your additional “proof” the family should have know or did know is y a tialj true, so wha now? I would wager there were many many aloof and weird brothers with a history of drug use in the 2 miles surrounding the terrible crimes. Do you think all the families of those men should have suspected their previously no violent offense brothers?

Not that drove white Elantras. And not who suddenly wanted to get their Elantra out of town right after the police announced they were looking for one.

And again, I still view violent history as a negative signal. This never looked like a set of murders from a person with an openly violent history.

Again, this did NOT happen. He told his family about his plan to drive home and pick up stuff MONTHS in advance. He planned to drive it back again! I genuinely do not understand why people think driving a car across the country is the best way to HIDE it. He LITERALLY got stopped by police en route!

Is that true? That would change my thoughts on this if it is. Where did you see the drive was planned for months?

Also, I think you're going down the wrong track regarding the risk. Under the circumstances, they didn't seem to know whose car they were looking for. Yes, if they have a plate number, driving it cross country would be a terrible idea. But that wasn't the risk. The risk was that police in the Moscow/Pullman area would see the white Elantra, run the plates, and add him to a list of people to dig into.

So, a white Elantra appearing in, say, South Dakota, doesn't mean anything. But a white Elantra in the Pullman/Moscow area would be significant.

NP, but yes, the part about the drive being planned in advance is true, or at least that's what was reported elsewhere. The cops already had a list of white Elantras registered to addresses in the area. The argument only makes sense if he didn't already live in the vicinity or the car was borrowed or a rental. The easiest way to "hide" the car would have been to leave it parked in a garage, but I just don't think "hiding" the car was ever an option.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

If I had a very odd brother who drove a white Elantra, regardless of model year, I'd be highly suspicious.

You'd be suspicious that he stabbed four college kids in the middle of the night? Really? It would be extremely hard for me to believe that anyone I was related to or close friends with had committed this crime unless I'd seen them be violent before. This is a very, very heinous crime. I can't imagine anyone doing this, not even the oddest or most troubled person I know. It is unfathomable.

I'm still confused why you find an apparent lack of prior violent behavior to be suggestive of innocence.

If this was a domestic violence situation, or some sort of heat-of-the-moment attack, then sure. Maybe even if it looked like some sort of revenge killing. But it never looked like that. It quickly looked like a planned murder of people chosen opportunistically and somewhat randomly.

I wouldn't expect such a murderer to have an openly violent history. I would expect them to look something more like a sociopath.

PP here. I don't think his lack of prior violent behavior is proof of his innocence. I don't think he's innocent. He pled guilty. His DNA was at the crime scene. His car was seen at the crime scene. He ordered a knife matching the murder weapon prior to the murder. He did it.

But I only know all that because I am NOW privy to details from the investigation. The family didn't know any of that. All they knew is that some college kids who lived somewhere in the vicinity of Brian were murdered and that both the killer and Brian drove a similar, fairly nondescript vehicle. And that Brian had never physically harmed anyone before. They didn't know about the knife. He had no connection to these kids at all. His behavior was the same as it always was -- weird but normal *for Brian*.

The idea that they should have suspected he was the killer when he had ZERO history of violent behavior and the only connection the family could possibly have made was a car that I'm sure did not seem terribly unusual to them is a huge leap. You don't discount of a lifetime of knowing, living with, even fighting with and being exasperated by a person you have never been known to be physically violent, and suddenly suspect they are a murderer because they also drive a similar but pretty nondescript white sedan.

He's guilty, and also it is unreasonable to expect his family on the other side of the country to have figured that out before or even at the same time as the police who were investigating the crime, given his lack of connection to the victims and, at the time, the total lack of public evidence connecting Brian specifically to the crime.

That's not what I meant. I meant the nature of the murders didn't seem to fit someone with a violent history. So why would the lack of a violent history make them less likely consider him as a potential suspect?

I still think the car on its own would be enough to start thinking about it. Even if it's initially more from the perspective of being worried the police might falsely suspect him. I know the year didn't match. And I think the sister mentioned at. But I just can't fathom someone really thinking "oh, they're looking for a 2011 or 2013 white Elantra, which could never be confused for a 2015 white Elantra." Maybe people really would think that? Seems nuts, but perhaps if you know cars well you might think other people should know cars well?

Also, the phone call still looks odd to me. I know they said he would call early, but how often did that really happen? Even if it's once a week, that's an awfully big coincidence. That makes it unusual enough that the mother and father would probably remember he had called early in the morning the same day there were murders early in the morning. Even if you don't view that with suspicion, it seems like something you'd remember. e.g., if he called from out of the house, their minds might jump to worry at the thought of him potentially crossing paths with the murderer. That kind of thinking seems consistent with other things the sister said.

Why do I think that matters if it wouldn't be (initially) viewed with suspicion? Because if they have that thought initially, they'd probably recall that thought after hearing about the car.

Don't get me wrong, I've come around to thinking they didn't suspect him. I'm just a little confused why they didn't suspect him.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have a weird and kind of aloof brother who has never been violent and I would never jump to the conclusion that he had committed a mass murder in a neighboring town, even if the police were looking for someone who also drove a blue rav-4.

If that brother had a history of mental health problems and called you early in the morning after the murder occurred, and then later suddenly wanted to get his car out of the state, you wouldn't have gotten suspicious?

Well, on a different note, I've got a beautiful bridge you might be interested in...

He didn't call the sister early in the morning. He called his mom. And for his mom, it was not "the morning after the murder occurred." It was just... a morning. She lived on the other side of the country and knew nothing about the murders at the time. He'd called at odd hours before. She had no reason to believe his reason for calling this time was related to a news event she had not even heard about.

And he didn't "suddenly" want to get his car out of state. He had told them previously he wanted to get some things out of their house and drive them to his new place in Idaho, and his dad had offered to fly out and do the drive with him because it was so long. His dad had already bought a ticket when the murders occurred and, again, the family was not thinking about any of this in the context of the murders because to them, the murders were a separate news event that had nothing to do with their family.

A white Hyundai Elantra is a very, very common car. It is likely you know a person who drives that car. White is the most common car color. Elantras are affordable and have good resale value, so there are a lot of them on the road. If I heard about a horrific crime involving a Subaru Forester or a Nissan Sentra, I would not immediately assume that one of the people I know with those cars committed the crime. I would think "huh that car is very popular, it's going to be really hard for them to find the killer." Like it wouldn't even cross my mind.

You are making the common error of thinking that a piece of information you have already learned (that Brian Kohlberger killed four people) should always have been obvious to everyone even before literally ANYONE knew, including his family. In fact the only reason the police honed in on Brian is because his DNA was found on the knife, something it took weeks to learn because of how long DNA analysis takes. Before that, no one was looking at him and the fact that he drove a white Elantra and lived near the murder scene was not viewed as relevant by anyone.

You're being far too quick to dismiss the significance of the car. This isn't a highly populated area, there are only about 90,000 people in the census area that covers the two towns and surrounding area. The number of white 2011-2015 Elantras there is probably very roughly on the order of 50 or so cars (and some are probably fleet vehicles). That puts him in a very small set of suspects before even factoring in the other things.

There were lots of reasons to be suspicious, if someone was open to considering them. But the family probably wasn't.

2011-2015 wasn’t the date range put out, it was 2011-2013. It defies logic to suggest that the family should have done something with the information that he drove a white 2015 Elantra, or done some research into how many white Elantras were owned by people within that census area and assumed that the police were really looking for a 2015 and not a 2011-2013 model.

I agree with this. It was the wrong model. Of course the family was probably like, oh phew. If he drove a gray Elantra or a Toyota that looked like a white Hyundai would you also expect them to assume the police had it wrong and be suspicious anyway?

Cars often don't change their looks between years, so I would never assume the year implied specificity.

And honestly, I'd assume the same thing regarding color. White vs black or blue? No. White vs light grey? Yes.

Lol, you would never assume the actual years put out by law enforcement, 2011-2013, implied specificity? Then why would they have put out specific years? You have to be trolling at this point, because that argument is nonsensical.

Remember a few years ago when the police were looking for a white panel van with a ladder rack? Are you suggesting everyone that saw a white panel van without a ladder rack said "I'm cool with it."

Terrible deflection, the example of the sniper vehicle description is not applicable to an argument about whether people living across the country should have known/suspected their son was the killer because he drove the same make and model, but different year, of the common place vehicle that was identified as a vehicle of interest.

I really don't think the average person can tell the difference in model years for a boring Elantra. I guess a witness was a self-proclaimed Elantra expert.