Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

Here is what I am struggling to understand: if this swimmer was swimming in mixed gender heats, why was there a need to “score” their swim with the girls? Isn’t part of the issue with trans swimmers the ability to feel safe and swim with the gender they identify as? If this meet was already being run with mixed gender events, that was a non-issue, so why the need to be scored as girl?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't even an NVSL thing. It's related to the pool only. Bring it up with the pool which is a private club.

Where his wife is on the Board!

Gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

I would maybe be more inclined to your argument *if* this was part of a national organization (like USA swim) or even a larger regional organization (like the NVSL) where it may be or seem to be more difficult to affect change or feel heard. But this was a pool run event for the benefit of its members. A pool in which his wife sits on the board. There were so many avenues for him to challenge this with other adults in private and without embarrassing a child, degrading her family, and being a general d*ck in public.

[Anonymous]

I think that when making decisions about sports, we recognize that different kinds of sporting events and leagues have different goals, and that approaches to trans athletes should be different depending on their goals.

I support trans rights in almost every circumstance, but I also think that when it comes to something like women's NCAA scholarships, or women's Olympic trials, where the goal of an event is to identify and celebrate the very best women athletes, allowing biological males to compete is not consistent with that goal.

But the goal of a mini meet, that is open to the general public and not even limited to members of the rec team, is entirely different from the goals of the Olympics. It's not about celebrating the best, it's about introducing kids to a sport, enticing them to participate, getting them excited, developing the habit of exercise, having fun, making friends etc . . . Meeting those goals means removing barriers to participation. Asking for evidence of sex, is a huge barrier to kids participating. If I tried to sign up my cis gender daughter for a kickboard race at my pool, and I was told she needed to submit to an adult looking at her body, even in a bathing suit, and making judgments; or to submit her birth certificate; or to pay for documentation from the pediatrician; or to submit genetic information; I would say "oh never mind, we'll go to the playground instead". Those aren't reasonable things to ask someone to do for their 5 year old daughter to swim the length of the pool with a kickboard on a random summer afternoon. The only logical answer to "How do we decide which event kids swim in?" for a one time, non competitive, event open to the public whose sole purposes are fun and to entice kids to participate in the sport, is "they swim in the event their parents sign them up for".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

You are on the wrong side of history. Years from now you will be pretending you were opposed to this all along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

You are on the wrong side of history. Years from now you will be pretending you were opposed to this all along.

Back to a future prediction of how history will be written to support your nonsense. I'm comfortable with history remembering me saying dont be a dick to guests and little kids. I'm also against boys swimming in girls events, but totally besides the point on this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

You are on the wrong side of history. Years from now you will be pretending you were opposed to this all along.

I don't know where history will come down on the question of transwomen in high stakes sports, like NCAA or Olympics. You don't either.

But I feel confident that history will not come down on the side of men judging the bodies of little girls swimming in fun one time events with kickboards and demanding things like genetic information, or physical proof of gender. Privacy rights are going to be come an increasing big issue in this country as technology continues to develop, and there is no way that history will look at invading the privacy rights of girls (but not boys) too young to consent as the solution here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

You are on the wrong side of history. Years from now you will be pretending you were opposed to this all along.

+1. People were big on lobotomies at one point too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

The article, which is incredibly biased in his favor, says that he altered the records with the results. Is there any other circumstance in which an adult altering meet records in a race that their child swam in, to give the appearance that his child finished higher than they did, would continue to be welcome as an official?

The article also implies that there is disagreement about what was said, how loud it was said, etc . . . but altering the record seems to be something that he admits to.

Civil rights advocacy isn’t usually nice and pretty. Read some history.

If you have to quote history being on your side or civil disobedience to justify being rude to a parent or mean to a kid at a summer b-meet, you've already lost the argument. Quit tilting at windmills.

“Don’t be mean” and “be kind” were used to try to shut down suffragettes too. It’s a weaponization of women’s socialization to be accommodating to men. And that is exactly what is going on with the issue of trans girls in girls’ sports: girls are being told to accommodate the superior interests of boys to “be kind.” It is a shockingly regressive approach.

Is it great that he acted the way he did? Probably not when taken in isolation. But it is very common in the history of fighting for women’s progress and rights that women and their advocates are described as “mean,” the b-word, “aggressive,” “unkind,” etc. when they fight outside the system to defend girls and women. He would have made no progress whatsoever going through the approved “kind” channels where women patiently wait their turns for crumbs of rights to be doled out to them after men get what they want.

We all know how this would have ended if he had gone through “proper” channels. Likely it would have still resulted in him getting kicked out, but without any larger discussion. It would have been silenced, brushed over, etc.

There are a lot of facts missing in this story. We don’t know what really happened. There are no videos circulating. But I can pretty much guarantee that things like this are going to happen again and again because increasingly large numbers of people feel organizations are not listening and are prioritizing boys over girls.

No. Bigots don’t get to equate their hate to the suffragettes.

If you think it’s ok to go after children like this a-hole dad did then you are a vile POS.

You are on the wrong side of history. Years from now you will be pretending you were opposed to this all along.

Nope. GenZ is much more progressive re: gender than the boomers and gen-x bigots. And they’ve seen how the Rs are coming after their friends.