A Sincere Question about Secular Christmas

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Spin-off from a deleted part of another thread where it was off-topic...

I completely understand the appeal of secular Christmas for cultural Christians (for lack of a better phrase). It's fun and the decorations are pretty and there is a lot of family tradition that can still be passed down without all the religious components for those who have left Christianity. Truly, I'm happy for everyone who finds meaning in this iteration of Christmas.

What I don't understand is the insistence that the rest of us should celebrate it too. I understand that it's secular for you. I understand that you don't understand why the rest of us still call it a Christian holiday when you've divorced so much of the religion from it. But still, why do you insist that we all understand it the way you do and push and push people to celebrate secular Christmas (and I don't mean inviting us to your Christmas party, but really pushing us to teach our kids about Santa and decorate our own houses, because it will be fun and, really, it's not about Jesus)? I don't care that it's fun or that it's not about Jesus; it's just not my holiday, and I have plenty of my own holidays. You can just have Christmas to yourself. I'll wish you a Merry Christmas on December 25 and everything.

Nobody is doing this. It is all in your head.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spin-off from a deleted part of another thread where it was off-topic...

I completely understand the appeal of secular Christmas for cultural Christians (for lack of a better phrase). It's fun and the decorations are pretty and there is a lot of family tradition that can still be passed down without all the religious components for those who have left Christianity. Truly, I'm happy for everyone who finds meaning in this iteration of Christmas.

What I don't understand is the insistence that the rest of us should celebrate it too. I understand that it's secular for you. I understand that you don't understand why the rest of us still call it a Christian holiday when you've divorced so much of the religion from it. But still, why do you insist that we all understand it the way you do and push and push people to celebrate secular Christmas (and I don't mean inviting us to your Christmas party, but really pushing us to teach our kids about Santa and decorate our own houses, because it will be fun and, really, it's not about Jesus)? I don't care that it's fun or that it's not about Jesus; it's just not my holiday, and I have plenty of my own holidays. You can just have Christmas to yourself. I'll wish you a Merry Christmas on December 25 and everything.

Nobody is doing this. It is all in your head.

Correct -- no one is insisting that you do anything

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

It's fine if you think it's secular. The problem comes from the small handful of people who think that because they think it's secular, everyone should celebrate it as a secular holiday, too. I personally do not consider Christmas a secular holiday that I feel comfortable celebrating as a quasi-observant Jew. My feeling on Christmas is, everyone can do whatever they want with it, and I won't tell you how to celebrate it if you don't tell me how to celebrate it.

You can celebrate whatever you want. Why do you think I GAF what you celebrate?

Great! Glad you don't. Most people don't. I also don't GAF what you celebrate. But there are a small band of annoying people who don't like it when anyone misses out on Christmas, which they're certain is just a fun secular American holiday.

Well, it is 98% secular in the US…

Would you care to cite your 98% secular claim? Because it seems like you're going by feels, which is nice for you, but the rest of us don't experience the holiday based on your gut feeling of secularization.

A Gallup poll (https://news.gallup.com/poll/272357/percentage-americans-celebrate-christmas.aspx) from 2024 shows that the number of people who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday has declined significantly since 2005, but still 58% of people who celebrate Christmas do so strongly or somewhat religiously.

And, regardless of the "percentage" of religiosity in Christmas today, the point stands that for those who are not Christian (or Christian-descended with that cultural-family connection), the holiday is inextricably tied to Christianity, and it doesn't make those people any less American for not celebrating it.

Nice turd polishing there, combining “somewhat” and “strongly” — when your own link shows the same percentage of “strongly” and “not too”. Both less than 1/3.

You could say the same in reverse: “58% of people are not too religious or only somewhat religious about Christmas!” So your own link kinda self-owned you.

Yes, PP was being anecdotal, observational, and also hyperbolic. And didn’t say “98% of people” but rather “98% of Christmas” as in advertising, decorations, etc. Overall your post is a near-total fail.

It's a common survey summary technique to combine those two categories into one group showing the religiosity of Christmas celebrations. Even if you only look at the "strongly" category, it's not even close to 2%. So PP's claim that 98% of Christmas is secular is not backed up by any evidence.

Again, you are lying. The PP never said 98% of people and you insinuated the opposite of the truth about the statistics themselves. Shameful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

It's fine if you think it's secular. The problem comes from the small handful of people who think that because they think it's secular, everyone should celebrate it as a secular holiday, too. I personally do not consider Christmas a secular holiday that I feel comfortable celebrating as a quasi-observant Jew. My feeling on Christmas is, everyone can do whatever they want with it, and I won't tell you how to celebrate it if you don't tell me how to celebrate it.

You can celebrate whatever you want. Why do you think I GAF what you celebrate?

Great! Glad you don't. Most people don't. I also don't GAF what you celebrate. But there are a small band of annoying people who don't like it when anyone misses out on Christmas, which they're certain is just a fun secular American holiday.

Well, it is 98% secular in the US…

Would you care to cite your 98% secular claim? Because it seems like you're going by feels, which is nice for you, but the rest of us don't experience the holiday based on your gut feeling of secularization.

A Gallup poll (https://news.gallup.com/poll/272357/percentage-americans-celebrate-christmas.aspx) from 2024 shows that the number of people who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday has declined significantly since 2005, but still 58% of people who celebrate Christmas do so strongly or somewhat religiously.

And, regardless of the "percentage" of religiosity in Christmas today, the point stands that for those who are not Christian (or Christian-descended with that cultural-family connection), the holiday is inextricably tied to Christianity, and it doesn't make those people any less American for not celebrating it.

Nice turd polishing there, combining “somewhat” and “strongly” — when your own link shows the same percentage of “strongly” and “not too”. Both less than 1/3.

You could say the same in reverse: “58% of people are not too religious or only somewhat religious about Christmas!” So your own link kinda self-owned you.

Yes, PP was being anecdotal, observational, and also hyperbolic. And didn’t say “98% of people” but rather “98% of Christmas” as in advertising, decorations, etc. Overall your post is a near-total fail.

It's a common survey summary technique to combine those two categories into one group showing the religiosity of Christmas celebrations. Even if you only look at the "strongly" category, it's not even close to 2%. So PP's claim that 98% of Christmas is secular is not backed up by any evidence.

Again, you are lying. The PP never said 98% of people and you insinuated the opposite of the truth about the statistics themselves. Shameful.

98% of Christmas is not secular by any measure or definition. I'm sorry that fact bothers you so much.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

+1

Maybe the PP doesn’t know what secular means.

Secular:
Santa, elves, trees, songs, decorations, etc.

Religious:
Jesus “birthday”

Not secular at all.

It’s 98% secular. There is like 2% of it that is religious that the vast majority of people ignore.

I decorate and go to midnight mass (fewer people there, these days) and eat Christmas cookies and don't believe in God

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

It's fine if you think it's secular. The problem comes from the small handful of people who think that because they think it's secular, everyone should celebrate it as a secular holiday, too. I personally do not consider Christmas a secular holiday that I feel comfortable celebrating as a quasi-observant Jew. My feeling on Christmas is, everyone can do whatever they want with it, and I won't tell you how to celebrate it if you don't tell me how to celebrate it.

You can celebrate whatever you want. Why do you think I GAF what you celebrate?

Great! Glad you don't. Most people don't. I also don't GAF what you celebrate. But there are a small band of annoying people who don't like it when anyone misses out on Christmas, which they're certain is just a fun secular American holiday.

Well, it is 98% secular in the US…

Would you care to cite your 98% secular claim? Because it seems like you're going by feels, which is nice for you, but the rest of us don't experience the holiday based on your gut feeling of secularization.

A Gallup poll (https://news.gallup.com/poll/272357/percentage-americans-celebrate-christmas.aspx) from 2024 shows that the number of people who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday has declined significantly since 2005, but still 58% of people who celebrate Christmas do so strongly or somewhat religiously.

And, regardless of the "percentage" of religiosity in Christmas today, the point stands that for those who are not Christian (or Christian-descended with that cultural-family connection), the holiday is inextricably tied to Christianity, and it doesn't make those people any less American for not celebrating it.

Nice turd polishing there, combining “somewhat” and “strongly” — when your own link shows the same percentage of “strongly” and “not too”. Both less than 1/3.

You could say the same in reverse: “58% of people are not too religious or only somewhat religious about Christmas!” So your own link kinda self-owned you.

Yes, PP was being anecdotal, observational, and also hyperbolic. And didn’t say “98% of people” but rather “98% of Christmas” as in advertising, decorations, etc. Overall your post is a near-total fail.

It's a common survey summary technique to combine those two categories into one group showing the religiosity of Christmas celebrations. Even if you only look at the "strongly" category, it's not even close to 2%. So PP's claim that 98% of Christmas is secular is not backed up by any evidence.

Again, you are lying. The PP never said 98% of people and you insinuated the opposite of the truth about the statistics themselves. Shameful.

98% of Christmas is not secular by any measure or definition. I'm sorry that fact bothers you so much.

No, that doesn’t bother me at all. That’s simply your opinion, as was the PPs. What bothers me is how you had to lie and misrepresent what PP said. But that has been exposed above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

No. It’s hard to not put up lights and a tree and bake cookies and go shopping and give gifts until Christmas. There is a huge cultural push to do these things in December.

Ironically, it’s just as culturally abnormal to do them during the actual liturgical Christmas season. Secular Christmas is over by NYE.

[Anonymous]

I celebrate "secular Christmas" but I actually agree with OP that some people are weirdly pushy about how or whether other people celebrate. Some of our neighbors get very into outdoor decorations and they are very pushy that all of us should do it so that we can be some kind of destination neighborhood for it. But while we sometimes do a wreath in the door and some lights in the windows, I'm not interested in anything else because I think it's wasteful.

We have one neighbor who even tried to give us some inflatables for our yard so we could "get in the Christmas spirit" and when I politely declined, he was annoyed with us. Like he 100% manufactured a conflict with us just because it bugs him that we don't do a metric ton of lights or a giant Santa or something.

So while I don't think everyone is like this, if OP has encountered people like my neighbors I get why they feel as they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate "secular Christmas" but I actually agree with OP that some people are weirdly pushy about how or whether other people celebrate. Some of our neighbors get very into outdoor decorations and they are very pushy that all of us should do it so that we can be some kind of destination neighborhood for it. But while we sometimes do a wreath in the door and some lights in the windows, I'm not interested in anything else because I think it's wasteful.

We have one neighbor who even tried to give us some inflatables for our yard so we could "get in the Christmas spirit" and when I politely declined, he was annoyed with us. Like he 100% manufactured a conflict with us just because it bugs him that we don't do a metric ton of lights or a giant Santa or something.

So while I don't think everyone is like this, if OP has encountered people like my neighbors I get why they feel as they do.

I once walked through a neighborhood during the day when all the inflatables were deflated and looking pretty sad. Frankly, I think it might have been worse at night when they were all perked up and playing awful music and dancing around. Don't know. Never went back there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

No. It’s hard to not put up lights and a tree and bake cookies and go shopping and give gifts until Christmas. There is a huge cultural push to do these things in December.

Ironically, it’s just as culturally abnormal to do them during the actual liturgical Christmas season. Secular Christmas is over by NYE.

It’s not actually hard not to do this. Most Jewish families don’t do any of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

No. It’s hard to not put up lights and a tree and bake cookies and go shopping and give gifts until Christmas. There is a huge cultural push to do these things in December.

Ironically, it’s just as culturally abnormal to do them during the actual liturgical Christmas season. Secular Christmas is over by NYE.

It’s not actually hard not to do this. Most Jewish families don’t do any of it.

Okay…most Jewish people have been considered “other” for thousands of years because they don’t observe the same cultural traditions as the people around them.
I’m glad you think that’s “not hard.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

No. It’s hard to not put up lights and a tree and bake cookies and go shopping and give gifts until Christmas. There is a huge cultural push to do these things in December.

Ironically, it’s just as culturally abnormal to do them during the actual liturgical Christmas season. Secular Christmas is over by NYE.

It’s not actually hard not to do this. Most Jewish families don’t do any of it.

Okay…most Jewish people have been considered “other” for thousands of years because they don’t observe the same cultural traditions as the people around them.
I’m glad you think that’s “not hard.”

New Years day is actually a religious holiday too, in some Christian sects - the Feast of the Circumcism - the day, 7 days after birth, when all Jewish baby boys were circumcised. In the Catholic Church, it's a holy day of obligation, called "the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Circumcision_of_Christ#:~:text=The%20feast%20day%20appears%20on,(octave%20day)%20of%20Christmastide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read this whole thread, but I get what OP is talking about. We are Catholic, and my teenagers have been getting more devout as they have been getting older. They want to celebrate Christmas only as a religious holiday between Christmas and the epiphany. We’ve been trying to do this as a family the last couple of years, but it’s really hard to opt out.

It's hard to say no to all those invitations you're receiving?

No. It’s hard to not put up lights and a tree and bake cookies and go shopping and give gifts until Christmas. There is a huge cultural push to do these things in December.

Ironically, it’s just as culturally abnormal to do them during the actual liturgical Christmas season. Secular Christmas is over by NYE.

It’s not actually hard not to do this. Most Jewish families don’t do any of it.

Okay…most Jewish people have been considered “other” for thousands of years because they don’t observe the same cultural traditions as the people around them.
I’m glad you think that’s “not hard.”

It’s not that hard. Source: I am Jewish, my family is Jewish, I have never put up Christmas decorations and the only thing I do to celebrate Christmas is go get Chinese food after I work (because my office requires someone to be on duty even on holidays and it may as well be me). I’m sorry you think I’m some kind of alien Other because of it, I suppose?