TJ entrance test answers were never for sale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

The school board tried for 15 years to increase the diversity at TJ. Nothing worked. Read this school board doc showing all the steps that they took. They finally came up with what they thought was the best plan, a lottery, but that wasn’t allowed. Getting rid of the test was never about “cheating”, it was because certain minorities couldn’t pass the hurdle of the minimum test score to make it to the next round. For the class of 2024 the math cutoff was 50th percentile, NATIONWIDE. Not just 50th percentile of the kids applying to TJ.

For the Quant Q test given in 2019 and 2020, 2331 students scored below 50th percentile and 2,980 scored above 50th percentile. 50th percentile nationwide should not be hard for a student who is academically ready for a school like TJ.

Link?

50th percentile of kids taking a specialized entrance exam (quant-q)?

Does it matter? The Quant Q was a compromised test. Anyone who could afford it, could gain access to the question banks.

You made the claim. Back it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

The school board tried for 15 years to increase the diversity at TJ. Nothing worked. Read this school board doc showing all the steps that they took. They finally came up with what they thought was the best plan, a lottery, but that wasn’t allowed. Getting rid of the test was never about “cheating”, it was because certain minorities couldn’t pass the hurdle of the minimum test score to make it to the next round. For the class of 2024 the math cutoff was 50th percentile, NATIONWIDE. Not just 50th percentile of the kids applying to TJ.

For the Quant Q test given in 2019 and 2020, 2331 students scored below 50th percentile and 2,980 scored above 50th percentile. 50th percentile nationwide should not be hard for a student who is academically ready for a school like TJ.

Link?

50th percentile of kids taking a specialized entrance exam (quant-q)?

Does it matter? The Quant Q was a compromised test. Anyone who could afford it, could gain access to the question banks.

The question banks for the entrance tests should be make public. Secrecy causes the inequality.

Yes, ultimately quant-Q backfired and increased inequity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

If exclusive access to questions was the biggest unfair advantage of all, why would you reduce access to the questions rather than making them public so everyone has access to them?

This was about people being offended by the lack of racial diversity at TJ.

Quant-Q was a mistake, no doubt.

The admissions change was to address multiple areas of privilege, including the most important wrt academics: economic.

There were <1% of kids from economically-disadvantaged families before the change.

Who benefited the most from the change? Asian students from ED families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2029

Offers made to "academically wealthy feeders" (schools with most advanced STEM students):
Carson Middle School - 48
Cooper Middle School - 25
Longfellow Middle School - 48
Rocky Run Middle School - 22

The term “academically wealthy feeders” is used by certain posters on this forum, with a tone of envy, to describe top-ranked middle schools that consistently produce a large number of hardworking, advanced STEM students, and FCPS proudly mentions them in the TJ offers news releases.

My kid attends Carson and will be applying for TJ next year. We are upper middle class and have been able to provide them with math competition classes, STEM extra curriculars, and STEM camps because they enjoy them. I would expect that their STEM resume looks better than a FARMs kid from Poe who is interested in STEM and a strong student but does not have the same access to extra-curricular activities. I don't have a problem with the new admission system making sure that kid from Poe has a chance to attend TJ even if he is starting with less of a STEM base then my kid. The kid from Poe shouldn't be penalized because his parents couldn't afford the same opportunities we could.

There are ways to tweak the current admissions process that would improve the selection process. Increase the GPA to 3.75 and require all Honors classes. Math classes should be given a weight. 1 point for Algebra 2, .5 points for Geometry. That would mean that the more advanced math kids at schools like Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, and Rocky Run would be more likely to be in the top 1.5% and at the top of the general pool while not penalizing the kid at Poe who didn't have the same opportunities to accelerate in math.

But TJ is a public school that should be available to all the kids in our area if they meet the criteria. The old system favored kids whose parents could pay for enrichment. Adding the quota for each school opens the school to additional kids and there is nothing wrong with that.

Agreed. Also: the old system required parents to pay $100 to even take the exam. $100 is a lot of money for people to pay for an application to a high school they probably won’t get into. That’s where a lot of people will say: you were able to buy the test- because you were able to not just buy sample test questions or enrich, the test itself was expensive to begin with.

When the new system rolled out, they were going to make it a lottery, which I completely opposed and argued against on this forum. After they modified it, I have been advocating for them to keep it because it isn’t based on race. It is based on geography and merit. Raising the GPA is a good idea but the current system now is still way better than the old system. The same number of Asians are going into the school. And now we have more kids going to Princeton than in years before.

I would also like to mention that the new Principal is also Asian and seems to truly care about making sure the kids aren’t burning out and having the parents trust the process- while raising the schools academic index. So it seems to me that a lot of the parents who are complaining about the new system are of the same vein as our AG Miyares or just haven’t been really looking at the data.

Removing the $100 fee was a great idea, everything else was stupid and racist.

The first class under the new system saw a 120 point drop in PSAT score. The drop in student quality is not imagined. The reason for the change was racially driven

PP here. Also Asian.

The PSAT is given sophomore year and for the first class under the new system, it was given in Fall of 2022. That was shortly after the pandemic, and also after the first class also had their first full year back in school as freshman as TJ.

To blame the new admissions system on the drop in national merit semifinalists is not looking at history correctly. You and I will both agree that changing the TJ admissions during the pandemic was one of the shadiest things the SB could ever do. But blaming the drop on just the admissions and not looking at how the whole county handled school closures because of Trump and Covid is absurd. Because remember- schools closed under Trump. The world shut down under Trump. So don’t assume that it’s just the admissions. Lots of those kids also lost family members and dealt with the trauma of Covid and the online abuse of people like you, claiming they aren’t worthy enough.

But also, if you had kids in school at all… you would know that kids were not adjusting well to in person education. You would remember the increase of cyberbullying and how phones were uncontrolled. It was only recently (like this year) FCPS banned phones in the classroom. That first year back was chaotic. The second year wasn’t much better. It was last year that teachers said kids were getting better. 2023-2024.

If you think gifted kids were not on their phones or didn’t have issues with digital distraction as a result of school closure- well, you either don’t have kids or your logic is deeply flawed. It also suggests that your memory of what happened during those years is so hyper fixated on the admissions that you forget- The GOP effed up the country. And that any war cry they pick up to get the Asian vote is because you have forgotten the deeply effed up things that also affected test scores.

Btw- that first new admissions class is sending a grad to Oxford. And five to Princeton. Usually we only send 2 to Princeton and none to Oxford. And the Oxford student is Asian. Some of the parents are upset that their kids aren’t going where they assumed TJ would just send them to, but they are all thrilled their kids aren’t going to a good college and a bunch of them got full rides.

But hey….. keep screaming that GOP race baiting drivel here.

We have kids at both TJ and base. Stop cherry picking. Number of kids going to HYPMS dropped by a big amount this year compared to last at TJ, as did number of kids going to top 20. Other schools like McLean and Langley increased by a lot, as did their PSATs. So fair to assume admissions did affect the make up of school academic quality at TJ.

We are still happy for our kid at TJ. Happy that the school is more diversified. Still great resources and still great kids there. Still better than base for stem-oriented kid.

You don’t know this.

We have a kid at TJ too and I heard this was the best year in decades.

No, you don't and no, it wasn't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

If exclusive access to questions was the biggest unfair advantage of all, why would you reduce access to the questions rather than making them public so everyone has access to them?

This was about people being offended by the lack of racial diversity at TJ.

Quant-Q was a mistake, no doubt.

The admissions change was to address multiple areas of privilege, including the most important wrt academics: economic.

There were <1% of kids from economically-disadvantaged families before the change.

Who benefited the most from the change? Asian students from ED families.

And MC Asians were the most harmed group. So now what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

The Anti-Asian feeling" of the new admissions process was about asian families doing test prep and test prep is cheating so asian families are cheating.

You are pushing that narrative to stoke racial division for political purposes. Really disgusting.

They weren’t trying to get rid of Asian students. They added seats. They were trying to pull in more kids from across the county.

Having so much of the class coming from a handful of wealthy feeders wasn’t equitable.

I'm not the one that racially engineered the admissions process to reduce Asians and increase everyone else.

If you want to insist race had nothing to do with it, I can't stop you but nobody believes you.

The goal wasn’t to reduce Asians. They ADDED seats to increase representation from various groups across the county, including kids from high FRE MSs, URMs, kids from ED families, kids with SNs, etc.

You forgot to mention race, the single most significant driving factor in the admissions change.

The entire process was driven by the desire to achieve more racial diversity at TJ.

I did include URMs.

There were multiple reasons for the change, including economic diversity. The community has have been concerned about the inequities between economic groups for years.

Not really, it was almost entirely about race. I'm sure there were people that brought up these other uses from time to time but race was the driver.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

If exclusive access to questions was the biggest unfair advantage of all, why would you reduce access to the questions rather than making them public so everyone has access to them?

This was about people being offended by the lack of racial diversity at TJ.

Quant-Q was a mistake, no doubt.

The admissions change was to address multiple areas of privilege, including the most important wrt academics: economic.

There were <1% of kids from economically-disadvantaged families before the change.

Who benefited the most from the change? Asian students from ED families.

And MC Asians were the most harmed group. So now what?

Smart kids were harmed the most

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

The school board tried for 15 years to increase the diversity at TJ. Nothing worked. Read this school board doc showing all the steps that they took. They finally came up with what they thought was the best plan, a lottery, but that wasn’t allowed. Getting rid of the test was never about “cheating”, it was because certain minorities couldn’t pass the hurdle of the minimum test score to make it to the next round. For the class of 2024 the math cutoff was 50th percentile, NATIONWIDE. Not just 50th percentile of the kids applying to TJ.

For the Quant Q test given in 2019 and 2020, 2331 students scored below 50th percentile and 2,980 scored above 50th percentile. 50th percentile nationwide should not be hard for a student who is academically ready for a school like TJ.

Link?

50th percentile of kids taking a specialized entrance exam (quant-q)?

Admissions Data for the classes of 2019 and 2024:

https://www.fcag.org/TJ%20Admission%20Data%20SY18-19%20and%2019-20.xlsx

School Board document that is all about trying to increase diversity and change the demographics at TJ and the numerous things they tried that were u successful at increasing diversity.

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/BWE23Y004896/$file/TJ%20White%20Paper%2011.17.2020.pdf

This school board document shows the percentages of students applying by race and the percentage of students that became semi finalists:

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/BTGKX652F413/$file/TJHSST%20Admissions%20Merit%20Lottery%20Proposal.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

The Anti-Asian feeling" of the new admissions process was about asian families doing test prep and test prep is cheating so asian families are cheating.

You are pushing that narrative to stoke racial division for political purposes. Really disgusting.

They weren’t trying to get rid of Asian students. They added seats. They were trying to pull in more kids from across the county.

Having so much of the class coming from a handful of wealthy feeders wasn’t equitable.

I'm not the one that racially engineered the admissions process to reduce Asians and increase everyone else.

If you want to insist race had nothing to do with it, I can't stop you but nobody believes you.

The goal wasn’t to reduce Asians. They ADDED seats to increase representation from various groups across the county, including kids from high FRE MSs, URMs, kids from ED families, kids with SNs, etc.

You forgot to mention race, the single most significant driving factor in the admissions change.

The entire process was driven by the desire to achieve more racial diversity at TJ.

I did include URMs.

There were multiple reasons for the change, including economic diversity. The community has have been concerned about the inequities between economic groups for years.

Not really, it was almost entirely about race. I'm sure there were people that brought up these other uses from time to time but race was the driver.

It was about race:

School Board document that is all about trying to increase diversity and change the demographics at TJ and the numerous things they tried that were u successful at increasing diversity.

https://go.boarddocs.com/...7.2020.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is TJ admissions struggling to bring diversity in top 400 among a class of 550 students?

I dunno, why is Yao Ming the only chinese NBA player in the top 50% of NBA players? Different strokes for different folks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

The Anti-Asian feeling" of the new admissions process was about asian families doing test prep and test prep is cheating so asian families are cheating.

You are pushing that narrative to stoke racial division for political purposes. Really disgusting.

They weren’t trying to get rid of Asian students. They added seats. They were trying to pull in more kids from across the county.

Having so much of the class coming from a handful of wealthy feeders wasn’t equitable.

I'm not the one that racially engineered the admissions process to reduce Asians and increase everyone else.

If you want to insist race had nothing to do with it, I can't stop you but nobody believes you.

The goal wasn’t to reduce Asians. They ADDED seats to increase representation from various groups across the county, including kids from high FRE MSs, URMs, kids from ED families, kids with SNs, etc.

You forgot to mention race, the single most significant driving factor in the admissions change.

The entire process was driven by the desire to achieve more racial diversity at TJ.

I did include URMs.

There were multiple reasons for the change, including economic diversity. The community has have been concerned about the inequities between economic groups for years.

Not really, it was almost entirely about race. I'm sure there were people that brought up these other uses from time to time but race was the driver.

It was about race:

School Board document that is all about trying to increase diversity and change the demographics at TJ and the numerous things they tried that were u successful at increasing diversity.

https://go.boarddocs.com/...7.2020.pdf

A lot of broken links.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2029

Offers made to "academically wealthy feeders" (schools with most advanced STEM students):
Carson Middle School - 48
Cooper Middle School - 25
Longfellow Middle School - 48
Rocky Run Middle School - 22

The term “academically wealthy feeders” is used by certain posters on this forum, with a tone of envy, to describe top-ranked middle schools that consistently produce a large number of hardworking, advanced STEM students, and FCPS proudly mentions them in the TJ offers news releases.

My kid attends Carson and will be applying for TJ next year. We are upper middle class and have been able to provide them with math competition classes, STEM extra curriculars, and STEM camps because they enjoy them. I would expect that their STEM resume looks better than a FARMs kid from Poe who is interested in STEM and a strong student but does not have the same access to extra-curricular activities. I don't have a problem with the new admission system making sure that kid from Poe has a chance to attend TJ even if he is starting with less of a STEM base then my kid. The kid from Poe shouldn't be penalized because his parents couldn't afford the same opportunities we could.

There are ways to tweak the current admissions process that would improve the selection process. Increase the GPA to 3.75 and require all Honors classes. Math classes should be given a weight. 1 point for Algebra 2, .5 points for Geometry. That would mean that the more advanced math kids at schools like Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, and Rocky Run would be more likely to be in the top 1.5% and at the top of the general pool while not penalizing the kid at Poe who didn't have the same opportunities to accelerate in math.

But TJ is a public school that should be available to all the kids in our area if they meet the criteria. The old system favored kids whose parents could pay for enrichment. Adding the quota for each school opens the school to additional kids and there is nothing wrong with that.

Agreed. Also: the old system required parents to pay $100 to even take the exam. $100 is a lot of money for people to pay for an application to a high school they probably won’t get into. That’s where a lot of people will say: you were able to buy the test- because you were able to not just buy sample test questions or enrich, the test itself was expensive to begin with.

When the new system rolled out, they were going to make it a lottery, which I completely opposed and argued against on this forum. After they modified it, I have been advocating for them to keep it because it isn’t based on race. It is based on geography and merit. Raising the GPA is a good idea but the current system now is still way better than the old system. The same number of Asians are going into the school. And now we have more kids going to Princeton than in years before.

I would also like to mention that the new Principal is also Asian and seems to truly care about making sure the kids aren’t burning out and having the parents trust the process- while raising the schools academic index. So it seems to me that a lot of the parents who are complaining about the new system are of the same vein as our AG Miyares or just haven’t been really looking at the data.

Removing the $100 fee was a great idea, everything else was stupid and racist.

The first class under the new system saw a 120 point drop in PSAT score. The drop in student quality is not imagined. The reason for the change was racially driven

PP here. Also Asian.

The PSAT is given sophomore year and for the first class under the new system, it was given in Fall of 2022. That was shortly after the pandemic, and also after the first class also had their first full year back in school as freshman as TJ.

To blame the new admissions system on the drop in national merit semifinalists is not looking at history correctly. You and I will both agree that changing the TJ admissions during the pandemic was one of the shadiest things the SB could ever do. But blaming the drop on just the admissions and not looking at how the whole county handled school closures because of Trump and Covid is absurd. Because remember- schools closed under Trump. The world shut down under Trump. So don’t assume that it’s just the admissions. Lots of those kids also lost family members and dealt with the trauma of Covid and the online abuse of people like you, claiming they aren’t worthy enough.

Then why was TJ the ONLY school to see this sort of drop? None of the other FCPS schools saw this sort of drop. None of the science schools in NYC saw this sort of drop.

Was TJ the only school affected by COVID? And the PSAT NMSF are relative to all the other kids taking the test as 11th graders that year.

But also, if you had kids in school at all… you would know that kids were not adjusting well to in person education. You would remember the increase of cyberbullying and how phones were uncontrolled. It was only recently (like this year) FCPS banned phones in the classroom. That first year back was chaotic. The second year wasn’t much better. It was last year that teachers said kids were getting better. 2023-2024.

And TJ was not unique in this. EVERY school had similar issues.

If you think gifted kids were not on their phones or didn’t have issues with digital distraction as a result of school closure- well, you either don’t have kids or your logic is deeply flawed. It also suggests that your memory of what happened during those years is so hyper fixated on the admissions that you forget- The GOP effed up the country. And that any war cry they pick up to get the Asian vote is because you have forgotten the deeply effed up things that also affected test scores.

And in your unflawed logic, why didn't this affect anyone outside of TJ like this?

Btw- that first new admissions class is sending a grad to Oxford. And five to Princeton. Usually we only send 2 to Princeton and none to Oxford. And the Oxford student is Asian. Some of the parents are upset that their kids aren’t going where they assumed TJ would just send them to, but they are all thrilled their kids aren’t going to a good college and a bunch of them got full rides.

But hey….. keep screaming that GOP race baiting drivel here.

Dismissing legitimate concerns with really bad logic and calling their concerns GOP drivel is the reason why trump won. People like you are why trump won.

[Anonymous]

TJ saw a significant increase in kids from lower-income families. Of course that shifts standardized test results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TJ saw a significant increase in kids from lower-income families. Of course that shifts standardized test results.

Low income /= stupid

PSAT is generally not prepped.
Aside from the FARM kids, the SES of the TJ students hasn't changed that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affluent families who could afford test prep programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl


https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.


https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the  math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the  math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.'  We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos

If all this is true and your conclusions are correct, then why did we saw no increase in FARM students with the first administration of the quant Q test?

What did the quant Q test have as statistically insignificant impact on who got in relative to other years?

Nobody could prep or study for quant Q because nobody knew what was on the test. So why didn't we see the sort of results you seem to think we would get if all the Asians weren't cheating?

I was explaining the rationale behind the change to Quant-Q, not that it was successful. Any test prep is still better than no test prep.

Some good insights IMO:
"Almost every year since I applied to TJ, the Admissions Office has transformed its admissions process; though this purportedly prevents tutors from coaching students to a test, in actuality, this only makes it harder for disadvantaged groups to help themselves prepare for the exam.

The set of skills needed to excel at the exam is different from the one that’s typically taught in schools: for those who haven’t been taking test prep for years, this may as well be the first time that they’ve taken a timed, standardized test. For those who’ve prepared for years, frequent practice exams and sample prompts allow them to gain experience taking 3 hour multiple choice exams like the Quant-Q/ACT-Aspire. As a senior who went through more than three years of TJ prep classes, the contrast between tuition-based courses and free outreach programs is saddening because tuition-based programs simply have more time and money: the competitive culture that fuels TJ prep encourages students to take classes from elementary school while parents’ money purchases the best prep books and hires the best teachers.

Given the additional vague guidelines, little guidance, and a complete lack of prep material, TJ Admissions and its applicant site denies ordinary people, those without access to expensive courses, the opportunity to get ahead. The gap between applicant and finalist demographics continues to widen as fewer and fewer preparatory resources are made public for applicants."

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/

This is not data, this is the self flagellating of virtue signaling middle class kids bemoaning their privilege of being able to afford $2000/year program at places like curie.

Everyone took the quant Q cold that first year. The bottom that multiple choice exams are some secret format is stupid. Strategy and tactics on taking unspecified multiple choice exams is exceedingly thin and can be covered in an afternoon.

It's certainly not enough to explain the statistically similar results with quant Q vs the previous test by pointing at test prep.

Test prep is just dog whistle for "Asians are cheating". Which is just dog whistle for Asians are sneaky, conniving, greedy, immoral and unethical. Pretty much the same stereotype that Jews faced when they were first a model minority.

"Test prep" has never been limited to Asian families. And it's not just limited an afternoon of test taking strategies.

There is a robust test prep industry that caters to all flavors of wealthy people. Even today.

Test prep for a test that nobody has ever seen is limited to about an afternoons worth of material. You can't really peep for a test you have never seen. All you can do is talk about process of elimination, when to guess, overly vague words vs overly restrictive words. If it takes more than an afternoon to teach that to you, you were never getting in to begin with

As I said, it wasn’t just about test strategies. Families were (and still are) willing to spend big bucks in a variety of ways to get their kids a leg up.

Buying/renting in a certain school zone
Tutoring/academic programs
Certain activities/clubs
Essay coaching
Overall admissions consulting
Etc.

They eliminated the test. The argument was that this was to battle test prep and had nothing to do with race. It was clearly about race and had very little to do with test prep.

It was about inequities.

Kids from affluent families have a huge leg up in TJ admissions (and education) in general. Kids from affluent families who targeted activities, tutoring, etc specifically to get into TJ had an even better shot. And the kids who were able to see sample test questions that looked very similar to the actual test questions had the biggest unfair advantage of all.

Chipping away at the obvious inequities in the admissions process was progress but not a complete solution.

If exclusive access to questions was the biggest unfair advantage of all, why would you reduce access to the questions rather than making them public so everyone has access to them?

This was about people being offended by the lack of racial diversity at TJ.

Quant-Q was a mistake, no doubt.

The admissions change was to address multiple areas of privilege, including the most important wrt academics: economic.

There were <1% of kids from economically-disadvantaged families before the change.

Who benefited the most from the change? Asian students from ED families.

And MC Asians were the most harmed group. So now what?

How exactly? Asian enrollment is at a historic high.