Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.
You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.
This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.
Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.
This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.
Jobs were in Fair Lakes and Ballston. In fact a lot of jobs in VA happen to be more concentrated along the 66 corridor so it makes sense that people want to live in Vienna/Falls Church/N Arlington.
The underlying issue is a development one. The county has concentrated lower income areas and that trickles down to where employers put job centers. Blaming individual families for choosing where to live based on factors outside their control is one way to go about it I guess. But I also have a lot of wealthy neighbors who are POC (black, Asian, + mixed families). Are they racist for wanting good commutes and schools that do not have the issues that come with higher poverty rates? Or is it only white families that are bad for this?
The underlying issue is fixing the county’s pattern of development instead of trying to force people through the use of school boundaries or judging them for choosing option schools. FWIW I support denser development along areas close to metro and would like to see more SES mixture in the north part of the county and I know plenty of other friends/neighbors who don’t exactly love raising kids in a concentration of wealth.
But we need to stop asking schools and individual families to take on the brunt of fixing societal issues. If you want to call a bunch of people you don’t know in a different zip code racist though, I hope that helps you feel better.
No, the county concentrated black areas through racist housing convenants, and those areas still have lower property values and higher proportions of students of color. Those schools were segregated first, and higher poverty later as wealthier people bid up housing prices in north Arlington between 2000-2015 to avoid those schools. This issue is absolutely based in race as a result of Virginia's history, even if none of us lived here 60 years ago and don't see ourselves as racist. Arlington's neighborhood school boundaries--not the option/choice schools--preserve racism. The AEM post completely misses the point; if anything, it is allowing everyone to avoid the real conversation.
NO, they preserve segregation.
NO, it is not racist to buy a home in a higher-performing school zone because you want a higher performing school for your kids.
Are some people racist? Yes. Is everyone who buys a house in a majority white school zone or neighborhood racist? No. Is everyone who buys a house in a high-poverty school zone NOT racist? No.
We need to stop talking about this particular situation (segregated schools) as a racist issue and just talk about solutions to de-segregating our schools: admissions policies and alternative methods to geographical boundaries.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
Is it really 1/3 to 1/2? I knew the student turnover would be high when we chose to bypass the neighborhood school, but I didn't have a figure. Do you have any sources for that figure or is it just an educated guess?
That was the turnover in my kids’ south Arlington (22204) elementary school over the 10 years I had kids there. One time I literally went through and counted how many kids from one year’s yearbook were in the next, and did it with the next two yearbooks, etc.
Wow.
If you live in a zone with a ton of rentals, ironically sending your kids to the "neighborhood" school doesn't mean that they will make "neighborhood" friends. All the other kids on our block went to ATS--many years my kids were the only ones at the stop for their zoned school while there were a half dozen a block away at the ATS stop. (We didn't know about the option schools--it never occurred to me to do anything other than send my first kid to our neighborhood elementary because there was no such thing as options or choices where I grew up, and once I had one kid there I didn't want my second at a differrent school.) And they had to make new friends all the time, because kids were moving in and out every couple of years. Also, none of the kids getting on the ATS bus were white--if there were any other white families in my neighborhood they must have gone to private school (which again, we don't criticize apparently, just the ones choosing the option schools).
yeah someone raised the private exodus in AEM and the response was if people want to go private so be it, but let's attack the option schools. seems like a couple people who are bitter because their kids didn't get into option programs rather than people who really care about desegregration.
Rather, sounds like a bit of wisdom to focus on working with what you've got and not worrying about people you can't control.
Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.
You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.
This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.
Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.
This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.
Jobs were in Fair Lakes and Ballston. In fact a lot of jobs in VA happen to be more concentrated along the 66 corridor so it makes sense that people want to live in Vienna/Falls Church/N Arlington.
The underlying issue is a development one. The county has concentrated lower income areas and that trickles down to where employers put job centers. Blaming individual families for choosing where to live based on factors outside their control is one way to go about it I guess. But I also have a lot of wealthy neighbors who are POC (black, Asian, + mixed families). Are they racist for wanting good commutes and schools that do not have the issues that come with higher poverty rates? Or is it only white families that are bad for this?
The underlying issue is fixing the county’s pattern of development instead of trying to force people through the use of school boundaries or judging them for choosing option schools. FWIW I support denser development along areas close to metro and would like to see more SES mixture in the north part of the county and I know plenty of other friends/neighbors who don’t exactly love raising kids in a concentration of wealth.
But we need to stop asking schools and individual families to take on the brunt of fixing societal issues. If you want to call a bunch of people you don’t know in a different zip code racist though, I hope that helps you feel better.
No, the county concentrated black areas through racist housing convenants, and those areas still have lower property values and higher proportions of students of color. Those schools were segregated first, and higher poverty later as wealthier people bid up housing prices in north Arlington between 2000-2015 to avoid those schools. This issue is absolutely based in race as a result of Virginia's history, even if none of us lived here 60 years ago and don't see ourselves as racist. Arlington's neighborhood school boundaries--not the option/choice schools--preserve racism. The AEM post completely misses the point; if anything, it is allowing everyone to avoid the real conversation.
NO, they preserve segregation.
NO, it is not racist to buy a home in a higher-performing school zone because you want a higher performing school for your kids.
Are some people racist? Yes. Is everyone who buys a house in a majority white school zone or neighborhood racist? No. Is everyone who buys a house in a high-poverty school zone NOT racist? No.
We need to stop talking about this particular situation (segregated schools) as a racist issue and just talk about solutions to de-segregating our schools: admissions policies and alternative methods to geographical boundaries.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Ranked choice baby. No more neighborhood schools.
Thats not a way to build community.
We went to an option school and had community in the school and our neighborhood.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Ranked choice baby. No more neighborhood schools.
Thats not a way to build community.
Good news! Arlington one of the smallest counties in the US.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Ranked choice baby. No more neighborhood schools.
Thats not a way to build community.
Good news! Arlington one of the smallest counties in the US.
And if your kids play any sports or do activities they'll meet plenty of kids from your neighborhood or beyond
Fine but don’t whine about segregation then if not willing to do what it takes to actually desegregate like boundary changes with busing to opposite side of county or ranked choice.
Anonymous wrote:Fine but don’t whine about segregation then if not willing to do what it takes to actually desegregate like boundary changes with busing to opposite side of county or ranked choice.
So we should bus black and brown kids from our overcrowded schools in the south to our undercrowded schools in the north?
Anonymous wrote:Fine but don’t whine about segregation then if not willing to do what it takes to actually desegregate like boundary changes with busing to opposite side of county or ranked choice.
So we should bus black and brown kids from our overcrowded schools in the south to our undercrowded schools in the north?
No, but I’ll be all for bussing Jamestown, Discovery, Nottingham and Tuckahoe kids to Carlin Springs!
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Ranked choice baby. No more neighborhood schools.
Nope. Open lottery. Your kid attends whatever school they get place in by lottery. Don’t like it? Private or move.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
And unreliable or changing housing. A lot of you are missing how often low-income families change their housing situations and therefore how often the kids change schools. Option schools or programs like ATS, Montessori, etc are off the table because parents don't stay with one school (possibly one school system) long enough to learn about/plan for/enroll their kids in these programs. They move and enroll in the neighborhood school, wash, rinse, repeat.
Many south Arlington schools serve large populations of students whose families rent and a large proportion of the student population turns over every year. That is reflected in test scores--teachers and admins are starting from scratch each fall in terms of figuring out how to put together classes, assess disabilities, etc. If you have mostly the same kids for 5-6 years you can work with them over time to get them what they need; not so much when 1/3-1/2 are new each year.
Its not that the parents want to do this or do that. Circumstances drive what it is possible to do.
That’s actually a great argument for expanding access to options schools. Kids who are bouncing around South Arlington could stay in the same school regardless of their address, with transportation. I’ve worked at multiple South Arlington schools and many of the kids are not leaving the county but just going to a different South Arlington school
Ranked choice baby. No more neighborhood schools.
Nope. Open lottery. Your kid attends whatever school they get place in by lottery. Don’t like it? Private or move.
I can hardly wait for the outrage from (north) Arlingtonians for that one…
Can APS have option schools and invest in underperforming schools? Are there successes in those option schools that could apply to all schools? Is that part of the story in JF’s post? My kids are at Oakridge—high teacher turnover, lots of parent angst, declining/non consistent test scores, widening gaps, many negative threads on DCUrbanmom—I haven’t won the option school lottery yet. I can’t afford to put kids in private school. Otherwise, I like where we live. If I were in N Arlington, I wouldn’t have to worry as much about winning the option lottery because my kids would be in a high performance school lottery or not. And this isn’t a high poverty school
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