When the smallest doubt is treated as support of the other side

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We don’t debate ideas anymore, we debate loyalties.

Whew. This says it all. Whoever you are, you’ve nailed it.

+100000

People are tribal. As more an Americans identify less with a religious identity, they replace their tribalism with a political identity.

And what happens when religious identity and positions are intertwined with politicians and policy? ie the Evangelicals

What about it? The point is the amount of people with strong religious identity is declining. Secular religion is the new wave.

Secular religion? Like worshipping a politician or political party?

Not necessarily, though it could be. Fervent, bordering on religiously zealous, adherence to a cause, belief or person.

To take it out of a political context, the increase in celebrity stan culture is an example. BTS Army, Swifties, Sussex Squad, BeyHive etc.

Yup.

Trump is a religion for his hardcore MAGA followers. They speak about him as if he's the messiah and a prophet. It's very similar to fervent religious adherents.

Religion? Then we have DEI, Climate Change and Woke. You can't even see it, can you?

These examples are two sides of the same coin. Same thing, but one side blindly idolizes Trump, the other blindly follows DEI/social justice/equity nonsense. Blind belief in these competing ideologies gives them a sense of belonging, direction, and purpose that would have previously been filled by religion.

You wouldn't think the equity stuff was nonsense if you were one of the people on the short end of the stick.

You wouldn't think of MAGA as a cult if you were one of the people trying to save America from ruin.

Ah, but here is the rub. MAGA are the ones who staged a coup. After that, you can complain about the left and their policies until the cows come home. No one who actually loves their country tries to overturn an election in a violent manner, particularly now, in hindsight, when we see the planners and plotters admitting it was all a lie. Shocking that you somehow still think it was a fake election and that the coup plotters are still patriots.

Yawn. You are trying to make this some competition and are missing the point. Still stuck of the belief rather than the behavior

No one who truly believes in justice, equity and inclusion would engage in massive destruction and looting of small businesses (many of which were owned by minorities). We could do this all day. You're just so caught in your bubble, you can't see past your own "righteousness".

Do you take pamphlets with you when you proslytize?

And you are missing the point. The people protesting Floyd's death were peaceful. There is evidence, based on charges, that the deaths and rioting that took place were instigated by right wingers. You are so caught up in your bubble, you didn't know that. I posted links already in this thread and you have chosen to ignore them.

The RWNJ you’re going back and forth with is too far gone (or too well paid). All the proof in the world can’t convince someone whose sense of self is bound up in his victimhood like his is.

Use of this term is a telltale sign that you are probably in a bubble. So far gone, indeed.

This particular bubble is called "sanity". You haven't been a part of this bubble for a long time. I pity you.

[Anonymous]

I think a bubble is the belief that the riots associated with the George Floyd protests were all either instigated or perpetrated by only one side. It’s ridiculous to not accept that a some of them were perpetrated and carried out by left-wing activists. It’s also ridiculous to not accept that some of them were perpetrated and carried out by right-wing activists. There is evidence of both. If you passionately believe that your side had nothing to do with the looting and rioting that summer, congratulations, you are in a political bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don’t debate ideas anymore, we debate loyalties.

Whew. This says it all. Whoever you are, you’ve nailed it.

+100000

People are tribal. As more an Americans identify less with a religious identity, they replace their tribalism with a political identity.

And what happens when religious identity and positions are intertwined with politicians and policy? ie the Evangelicals

What about it? The point is the amount of people with strong religious identity is declining. Secular religion is the new wave.

Secular religion? Like worshipping a politician or political party?

Not necessarily, though it could be. Fervent, bordering on religiously zealous, adherence to a cause, belief or person.

To take it out of a political context, the increase in celebrity stan culture is an example. BTS Army, Swifties, Sussex Squad, BeyHive etc.

Yup.

Trump is a religion for his hardcore MAGA followers. They speak about him as if he's the messiah and a prophet. It's very similar to fervent religious adherents.

Religion? Then we have DEI, Climate Change and Woke. You can't even see it, can you?

These examples are two sides of the same coin. Same thing, but one side blindly idolizes Trump, the other blindly follows DEI/social justice/equity nonsense. Blind belief in these competing ideologies gives them a sense of belonging, direction, and purpose that would have previously been filled by religion.

You wouldn't think the equity stuff was nonsense if you were one of the people on the short end of the stick.

You wouldn't think of MAGA as a cult if you were one of the people trying to save America from ruin.

Ah, but here is the rub. MAGA are the ones who staged a coup. After that, you can complain about the left and their policies until the cows come home. No one who actually loves their country tries to overturn an election in a violent manner, particularly now, in hindsight, when we see the planners and plotters admitting it was all a lie. Shocking that you somehow still think it was a fake election and that the coup plotters are still patriots.

Yawn. You are trying to make this some competition and are missing the point. Still stuck of the belief rather than the behavior

No one who truly believes in justice, equity and inclusion would engage in massive destruction and looting of small businesses (many of which were owned by minorities). We could do this all day. You're just so caught in your bubble, you can't see past your own "righteousness".

Do you take pamphlets with you when you proslytize?

And you are missing the point. The people protesting Floyd's death were peaceful. There is evidence, based on charges, that the deaths and rioting that took place were instigated by right wingers. You are so caught up in your bubble, you didn't know that. I posted links already in this thread and you have chosen to ignore them.

The RWNJ you’re going back and forth with is too far gone (or too well paid). All the proof in the world can’t convince someone whose sense of self is bound up in his victimhood like his is.

Use of this term is a telltale sign that you are probably in a bubble. So far gone, indeed.

This particular bubble is called "sanity". You haven't been a part of this bubble for a long time. I pity you.

Found the LWNJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll try to make it as general as possible. What if there is a hot topic, A vs B. Say most people around you support A. You do, too, but you have questions or doubts about A, or you can understand (but not support) B’s reasoning. you don’t perceive A as something flawless.
However if you ask those questions, or even don’t support A with all your heart, you are labeled as (insert whatever insult du jour you can think of).
How to deal with it?
I find that in the most recent conflicts I can’t support one side without reservation, yet it seems like I am expected to. I am genuinely scared of all the silence is violence type tropes.

It sounds like you are talking about the Israel/Palestine conflict. Israel was attacked by Hamas and attacked back, but if anyone expresses concern for the Palestinians (not Hamas), then you are labeled and a Hamas sympathizer. I get it. Like a PP said, we are now supporting loyalties, and there is no more critical thinking allowed. It’s sad.

OP here. This is part of it. I’ll say that the expression of sympathy to the innocent victims is allowed, however nothing more is. If I say that maybe it should be easier to deliver aid - I am the enemy. If so much as mention the settlements - I am the enemy.
Next, take the Ukrainian conflict. There is a number of Russians who are suffering through no fault of their own, yet it is bad form to express sympathy for them. Saying that Ukraine has a history of corruption is also bad form.
All right, now let’s look at covid. One can’t say that the businesses or schools were only closed until there was no more money/political will to keep them closed. They are labeled an old lady killer.
BLM? Pointing out that the victim had criminal history makes you a racist.
All in all, One should not question The Good Guy!

Do you see the pattern in who is labeling you and does not allow to question anything?

Actually, no, I had some surprises. Like I was able to discuss BLM and covid measures and Ukraine war and we had differing opinions but we could discuss. Once Israel happened the person went batshit crazy and no discussion was possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll try to make it as general as possible. What if there is a hot topic, A vs B. Say most people around you support A. You do, too, but you have questions or doubts about A, or you can understand (but not support) B’s reasoning. you don’t perceive A as something flawless.
However if you ask those questions, or even don’t support A with all your heart, you are labeled as (insert whatever insult du jour you can think of).
How to deal with it?
I find that in the most recent conflicts I can’t support one side without reservation, yet it seems like I am expected to. I am genuinely scared of all the silence is violence type tropes.

It sounds like you are talking about the Israel/Palestine conflict. Israel was attacked by Hamas and attacked back, but if anyone expresses concern for the Palestinians (not Hamas), then you are labeled and a Hamas sympathizer. I get it. Like a PP said, we are now supporting loyalties, and there is no more critical thinking allowed. It’s sad.

OP here. This is part of it. I’ll say that the expression of sympathy to the innocent victims is allowed, however nothing more is. If I say that maybe it should be easier to deliver aid - I am the enemy. If so much as mention the settlements - I am the enemy.
Next, take the Ukrainian conflict. There is a number of Russians who are suffering through no fault of their own, yet it is bad form to express sympathy for them. Saying that Ukraine has a history of corruption is also bad form.
All right, now let’s look at covid. One can’t say that the businesses or schools were only closed until there was no more money/political will to keep them closed. They are labeled an old lady killer.
BLM? Pointing out that the victim had criminal history makes you a racist.
All in all, One should not question The Good Guy!

Off topic...other than those in the Russian military, who are the Russians suffering?

People (villagers) living super close to the border are being bombed and attacked.
Lots of medications aren’t available anymore due to sanctions (despite the promise to not sanction essentials)
People protesting the war are thrown in jail
Those who have relatives in ukraine who can’t leave
Heck, even those who live abroad and it’s become a whole ordeal to visit their family

I do realize the Ukrainians are suffering x100. However it’s sad that no compassion is allowed unless it’s The Good Side.

For Russia, this was 100% a war of choice. Russia was under zero credible threat of invasion nor any other credible threat of harm. And Russia could end this war tomorrow, by withdrawing.

Ukraine on the other hand had zero choice in this. Russia intended to invade and did so with only the flimsiest of pretexts. And if Ukraine stops fighting, they will get destroyed.

So, it's not just about "suffering" nor is it about some artificial perception of "good side" or "bad side."

I don’t want to go into specifics too much as it will just lead to duplication of arguments in other threads, I just wanted to say that even such a small deviation from the “acceptable” point of view as feeling sorry for the innocent victims of the other side (yes I think people of Iran don’t really have influence over their government’s actions, for example) leads to accusations of all the bad things imaginable.

I really wouldn’t put a lot of stock into how people react online. There are way too many bad actors looking to disrupt, to make you feel agitated and alienated.

Although for the record, I have a lot more sympathy for the average Iranian civilian citizen than I do for the average Russian civilian citizen probably because I’ve seen so many videos of Russians bragging and boasting and glorying in the war in Ukraine. On the one hand they don’t have a free media, on the other hand, rightly or wrongly I credit Russians with being a fairly intelligent people who can see through bullcrap.

But really. Just stop worrying what people are saying to you online. Wayyyy too many people have an agenda and that agenda increasingly seems like they just want people aggravated and anxious, suspicious of their fellow Americans.

You are biased. Many Russians who loudly expressed their dissent were aggressively and often violently shut down. Many many disagree with the war but they keep their opinions to themselves in fear of retaliation. That's why you only see the videos of gleeful monsters. My Russian friends are part of a volunteer group that helps Ukrainians who were dislocated to Russia to get to Europe. You will not know about these people helping and volunteering, they don't advertise their participation for safety reasons.

Ukrainians are the victims in that war, no debate here. Yet, although it's easier to paint the whole Russian nation as a soulless violent mass, the reality is much more nuanced.

Trump understood those nuances when he said that there is no reason to be enemies with Russia. And he was labeled a Russian supporter. The world was so much better when Americans and Russians was able to find some common ground. Biden is not getting it.

Tbh, as Russian, I don’t see what common ground could be or should found with the Russian government now. I wish only victory to Ukraine and support Biden’s decision to send aid. I also want the world to know about many Western leaders who helped Putin shut the anti-war protests but now act as if there were no opposition at all and each Russian citizen should be punished.

I am another Russian, I hope you understand that all aid serves the purpose of those providing it, first and foremost. Just remember it when you support decisions to send aid