White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Considering the only current household name ballerina is black, associating balletcore with whiteness seems very silly. Anyway. I don’t think any of these aesthetic trends are uniquely white. They are probably uniquely UMC, but obviously it’s not only white people who are wealthy.

Misty Copeland is celebrated because of how incredibly unusual it is for a star ballerina to be black. Ballet is overwhelmingly associated with whiteness and thinness.

So? I could care less, as could many others. I so see performers because of their talent, not their skin color. And white people do not own ballet. What a joke.

1. It’s I couldn’t care less. Think: “I could care less” makes no sense. You could care less?! Where on the caring continuum are you exactly?! I couldn’t care less roughly translates to I have zero Fs to give on the topic.

2. Are you trying to say, “I don’t see color?” You missed that memo, dear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

Agree.

Those subreddits are also populated by a lot of very misogynist men pretending to be teen girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

I went looking for the article and if it's the one you're referring to, they don't sound that bad: https://www.vice.com/en/article/53d97k/the-subreddit-dedicated-to-trolling-makeup-vloggers-will-make-you-blush

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

I went looking for the article and if it's the one you're referring to, they don't sound that bad: https://www.vice.com/en/article/53d97k/the-subreddit-dedicated-to-trolling-makeup-vloggers-will-make-you-blush

That’s from 2016, all the Reddit circlejerk communities just get more insane over time. OP is probably old enough to be most of the other commenters’ parent. Which … if you’re 20 and spouting online circlejerk comments about WhItE WoMeN it just shows that you’re young and naive. But you should be well past that by 41.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 41 year old white woman, who is a makeup and skincare junkie, and chronically online. Everyone in this thread should take a look at the muacirclejerk and muacjdiscussion subs on reddit. There was just a great discussion about cosmetic conspiracy theories.

Here's what I believe:
- the "clean girl" aesthetic is inherently racist
- "clean beauty" is a really successful marketing gimmick to have products go bad quickly and thus sell more products
- "coastal grandmother" is inherently racist
- tiktok is literally empowering POC creators and it's great that racism in the beauty industry is being discussed
- the cosmetic industry is driven by white men capitalizing on women's insecurities
- it's interesting that from my skimming of this thread, no one has brought up the "hemline index" and the effects it can have on the cosmetics industry
- white women in the middle of the country are a legit problem and mostly have massive amounts of internalized misogyny that wreaks havoc on the country
- pale women need to stop whining about being able to find foundations light enough for them

But why? I understand clean girl to be based around excellent skin care and light, dewy, fresh looking makeup. Genuinely wondering how it is perceived as racist.

I would also say internalized misogyny is not just an issue with white women in flyover states. Plenty of woc and “progressive” women on the coasts perpetuate misogyny.

I think the implication, which I do happen to agree with, is that the concept of cleanliness and purity in beauty can be traced to explicitly racist tropes about how pale skin is always more attractive than darker skin (a concept that is both racist AND classist, because only wealthy women who could afford to stay inside and out of streets and fields, and avoid hard labor that might impact their skin, could ever accomplish the goal of having pale, perfect, unblemished skin). There's also a ton of colorism inherent in this, where even in cultures where in theory everyone has darker skin, lighter skinned women are considered more beautiful (skin lightening products have been around for a long time in India and other parts of Asia, and you also see rampant colorism in black communities that is often linked to class as well). It's not really about "excellent skin care", it's about having clear, light skin. Which is racist.

HOWEVER I agree with you about the idea that only white women in flyover states have internalized misogyny or are racist. I also don't think every woman who subscribes to "clean girl" or "coastal grandmother" aesthetics is racist -- these aesthetics prey on everyone's internalized misogyny and racism. The entire beauty industry preys on internalized misogyny and racism, that's the whole point. It's an industry that has an explicit goal of making women feel less than, however it can, and then convincing you that if you just buy this product or service, you won't feel that way anymore. If you think of it this way, it is absurd on it's face to blame average consumers for the problems in the industry. Sure, some influencers and people like Gwyneth Paltrow are profiting and can be held accountable, but the average person subscribing to "clean girl" is just a woman desperately trying to look better because she's been told that if she doesn't, she's failed. That deserved empathy, not an indictment.

This does not track with my basic white suburban upbringing at all. Nobody wanted to be pale. We lived to tan, faces included. I think the prevalence of skin cancer is a way bigger contributor to pale being “in” for white women than some made up racist trope.

Doesn't track with my experience either. My DD is VERY pale and she was teased mercilessly in middle school. People comment on it in not-nice ways. And she does have trouble finding makeup. But who cares, right? F pale people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like a classic NPR April Fools joke - like slow internet and the resurgence of cassette tapes.
https://www.npr.org/2016/03/27/472067228/nprs-past-april-fools-day-pranks

OP here. I thought of that while listening, but the original story was done on March 28.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is “coastal grandmother” racist lol? There is totally a Black version of coastal grandmother.

The fact that there is "a Black version" is pretty much the whole thing.

DP. Huh? How do?

Having a black version implies that the normative version is white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

I went looking for the article and if it's the one you're referring to, they don't sound that bad: https://www.vice.com/en/article/53d97k/the-subreddit-dedicated-to-trolling-makeup-vloggers-will-make-you-blush

To me that sounds very insular and trollish, and maybe not the best resource for dialogue on racism in the beauty industry. A data point, sure, but obsessives are, by definition, not very objective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is “coastal grandmother” racist lol? There is totally a Black version of coastal grandmother.

The fact that there is "a Black version" is pretty much the whole thing.

DP. Huh? How do?

Having a black version implies that the normative version is white.

Does that make the normative version inherently a tool of reasserting white supremacy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t admit to being a 41 year old quite woman who was chronically online on extremely niche sections of Reddit like it’s a good thing. It just makes you very insular in a certain subculture and out of touch with 99.5% of mainstream people.

It's good she admits to it if it's true but unfortunately she thinks it makes her an authority instead of what she actually is -- a sad person with both makeup and internet addictions. But yes, it is "white women in the middle of the country" who are the "legit problem" here.

DP. She didn't claim authority. She laid out her beliefs, which I thought was a more humble stance than many on this thread.

And subreddits are less insular than DCUM, so I don't get why people are judging the poster for that.

There is nothing humble about apparently sincerely laying the bulk of modern misogyny at the foot of middle aged white women from the Midwest. That takes some remarkably deluded self-importance, actually.

Reddit is one of the most openly misogynist places on the internet, if that’s what you mean by “less insular.” But it does track that the chronically online misogynist hangs out there.

The specific Reddit sub threads the PP mentioned are extremely insular— they are for people like the PP who are obsessed with make up and skin care and feverishly follow trends and products. A lot of insider jargon (like insider to the subreddit, not even just insider to the beauty industry). There was a vice report on them a few years back talking about how the threads are interesting as a they represent women-dominated trolling spaces online. They are constantly criticizing beauty influencers and their followers, lots of “take downs”, the language is really aggressive and there’s a lot of group think.

That’s why the PP thought she could just assert a bunch of stuff who it explaining or backing it up. She’s used to the group think of these subreddits where her opinions are widely shared and it’s all about the pile on against the target of the day.

I went looking for the article and if it's the one you're referring to, they don't sound that bad: https://www.vice.com/en/article/53d97k/the-subreddit-dedicated-to-trolling-makeup-vloggers-will-make-you-blush

Article is out of date. It’s almost entirely populated by grossly and yet enthusiastically misogynist men and transwomen now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 41 year old white woman, who is a makeup and skincare junkie, and chronically online. Everyone in this thread should take a look at the muacirclejerk and muacjdiscussion subs on reddit. There was just a great discussion about cosmetic conspiracy theories.

Here's what I believe:
- the "clean girl" aesthetic is inherently racist
- "clean beauty" is a really successful marketing gimmick to have products go bad quickly and thus sell more products
- "coastal grandmother" is inherently racist
- tiktok is literally empowering POC creators and it's great that racism in the beauty industry is being discussed
- the cosmetic industry is driven by white men capitalizing on women's insecurities
- it's interesting that from my skimming of this thread, no one has brought up the "hemline index" and the effects it can have on the cosmetics industry
- white women in the middle of the country are a legit problem and mostly have massive amounts of internalized misogyny that wreaks havoc on the country
- pale women need to stop whining about being able to find foundations light enough for them

But why? I understand clean girl to be based around excellent skin care and light, dewy, fresh looking makeup. Genuinely wondering how it is perceived as racist.

I would also say internalized misogyny is not just an issue with white women in flyover states. Plenty of woc and “progressive” women on the coasts perpetuate misogyny.

I think the implication, which I do happen to agree with, is that the concept of cleanliness and purity in beauty can be traced to explicitly racist tropes about how pale skin is always more attractive than darker skin (a concept that is both racist AND classist, because only wealthy women who could afford to stay inside and out of streets and fields, and avoid hard labor that might impact their skin, could ever accomplish the goal of having pale, perfect, unblemished skin). There's also a ton of colorism inherent in this, where even in cultures where in theory everyone has darker skin, lighter skinned women are considered more beautiful (skin lightening products have been around for a long time in India and other parts of Asia, and you also see rampant colorism in black communities that is often linked to class as well). It's not really about "excellent skin care", it's about having clear, light skin. Which is racist.

HOWEVER I agree with you about the idea that only white women in flyover states have internalized misogyny or are racist. I also don't think every woman who subscribes to "clean girl" or "coastal grandmother" aesthetics is racist -- these aesthetics prey on everyone's internalized misogyny and racism. The entire beauty industry preys on internalized misogyny and racism, that's the whole point. It's an industry that has an explicit goal of making women feel less than, however it can, and then convincing you that if you just buy this product or service, you won't feel that way anymore. If you think of it this way, it is absurd on it's face to blame average consumers for the problems in the industry. Sure, some influencers and people like Gwyneth Paltrow are profiting and can be held accountable, but the average person subscribing to "clean girl" is just a woman desperately trying to look better because she's been told that if she doesn't, she's failed. That deserved empathy, not an indictment.

This does not track with my basic white suburban upbringing at all. Nobody wanted to be pale. We lived to tan, faces included. I think the prevalence of skin cancer is a way bigger contributor to pale being “in” for white women than some made up racist trope.

Doesn't track with my experience either. My DD is VERY pale and she was teased mercilessly in middle school. People comment on it in not-nice ways. And she does have trouble finding makeup. But who cares, right? F pale people.

The one white influencer they call out in the article, Matilda Djerf, is very tan. I get that white beauty standards are dominant but they aren’t about being pale. The white influencers I follow all use self tanner like crazy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is “coastal grandmother” racist lol? There is totally a Black version of coastal grandmother.

The fact that there is "a Black version" is pretty much the whole thing.

DP. Huh? How do?

Having a black version implies that the normative version is white.

Does that make the normative version inherently a tool of reasserting white supremacy?

In the United States? Yes, 99% of the time it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is “coastal grandmother” racist lol? There is totally a Black version of coastal grandmother.

The fact that there is "a Black version" is pretty much the whole thing.

DP. Huh? How do?

Having a black version implies that the normative version is white.

I don't have much of an opinion about coastal grandmothers, black or white, but let's remember that only maybe 15% of the US is black.