Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there would be benefit to all age group swimmers if they broke the swim year into thirds based on each championship and utilized cutoffs to allow swimmers to train with their appropriate age group and compete in the championship for that segment of the season with the same group. For example, age as of Oct. 1 remains through December champs, age as of January 1 remains through March champs, age as of May 1 remains through LC champs. Solves so many problems and disadvantages no one, and avoids the lunacy of throwing a kid from a meet whose birthday is the day before the first day of competition. This is the way YMCA (non-USA) swim teams do it, and it works perfectly.

This is actually a very good system.

Eh, it still would lead to some absurd results. I have a kid who would “benefit” from this system for the LC champs in July. But it would have been kind of absurd for them to compete in the 10 and under group at age 11 with their 11-12 cuts. They would have won more than 1 event but everyone would have been complaining about that kid is actually 11. There are reasons for the summer swim cutoff that just aren’t applicable in a year round system. And I don’t mean this in a nasty way, but comparing YMCA league to USA swimming is really not an equivalent comparison.

It is way less absurd to have a kid who is 11+3 months competing against kids who are 10+3 months than it is to have kids who are 11+1 month competing against kids who are 12+11 months.

I mean, the 11 and 3 months kid would also be competing against kids 9 years and 3 months in the 10 and under category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

And none of that time included the PVS champs meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

And none of that time included the PVS champs meet.

It's one meet. Get over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

And none of that time included the PVS champs meet.

I totally understand that would suck for that kid, but you are talking about something that would happen to a minuscule number of swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

And none of that time included the PVS champs meet.

I totally understand that would suck for that kid, but you are talking about something that would happen to a minuscule number of swimmers.

And something like this could also give them three chances to qualify in the next age group (13-14), where they might very well be the oldest kid in the 14&u group at the PVS champs meet in 2026.

[Anonymous]

The long view is that changing the system so that poor Timmy who turns 11 the day of the pvs champs can swim as a 10 year old, doesn’t really matter. I have a kid who was 10 at his championship meet (not in dmv), won four events, then turned 11 two weeks later and competed in 11/12 at a more selective meet. He only made consolation finals, but got personal bests in the events he had won as a 10 year old. Guess which meet he was more proud of? He cared much more about his times, and I think that is true for most swimmers. It sends the wrong message to our young swimmers to care too much about when they age up and “it isn’t fair”. If they swim long enough, the only numbers that matter will be the ones on the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there would be benefit to all age group swimmers if they broke the swim year into thirds based on each championship and utilized cutoffs to allow swimmers to train with their appropriate age group and compete in the championship for that segment of the season with the same group. For example, age as of Oct. 1 remains through December champs, age as of January 1 remains through March champs, age as of May 1 remains through LC champs. Solves so many problems and disadvantages no one, and avoids the lunacy of throwing a kid from a meet whose birthday is the day before the first day of competition. This is the way YMCA (non-USA) swim teams do it, and it works perfectly.

This is actually a very good system.

Eh, it still would lead to some absurd results. I have a kid who would “benefit” from this system for the LC champs in July. But it would have been kind of absurd for them to compete in the 10 and under group at age 11 with their 11-12 cuts. They would have won more than 1 event but everyone would have been complaining about that kid is actually 11. There are reasons for the summer swim cutoff that just aren’t applicable in a year round system. And I don’t mean this in a nasty way, but comparing YMCA league to USA swimming is really not an equivalent comparison.

It is way less absurd to have a kid who is 11+3 months competing against kids who are 10+3 months than it is to have kids who are 11+1 month competing against kids who are 12+11 months.

This would be a very very good system. I’m going to bring it up to our club board and USA swim rep. It makes so much more sense than the current system and would help keep more kids engaged in the sport.

[Anonymous]

If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

+1

When they get older, none of this matters. Tell your kid that winter champs meet is "his" JOs. My son used to go to a meet right before he aged up. He always did REALLY well at that meet. It was "his" meet. Times are times...doesn't really matter when you get them. This sport is very long, and there are lots of ups and downs. Get out now if your kid (or you) can't handle that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

Being 10 years 11 months is not that different from being 11 years and 2 months though as many have pointed out, and there are definitely a number of kids at the lowest end of the age group making champs meets. It’s not just the truly elite than can hit the next age group’s cuts before they age up. Yes, all those kids are excellent, but we are with one of the big clubs and it is not unusual for this to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

Being 10 years 11 months is not that different from being 11 years and 2 months though as many have pointed out, and there are definitely a number of kids at the lowest end of the age group making champs meets. It’s not just the truly elite than can hit the next age group’s cuts before they age up. Yes, all those kids are excellent, but we are with one of the big clubs and it is not unusual for this to happen.

Yes, you are making the same point - those kids might be 11 years + a month at champs, meaning they had to qualify for that meet as a 10 year old. Then they are competing in the meet against kids who will turn 13 days or weeks after the meet.

I would argue that kids who are doing that ARE truly elite. The champs cuts for 11-12 where I am are equivalent to 10 &under AAAA times. Yes, there are kids who can do it, but I think it’s safe to say they are elite swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current system can produce really wacky results when the champs meets are held on different dates in different years. We have a boy with a March 13 birthday on our team. Last year, PVS champs was March 9-12, so he competed as 11 year old. This year, PVS champs is March 14-17, so he'll have to compete as a 13 year old (and probably won't make any cuts). The kid never gets a chance to compete as a 12 year old.

Wrong. He completed as a 12 year old for the entire year that he was in fact 12.

And none of that time included the PVS champs meet.

Mid season champs in Dec, Zones in August, States at the beginning of June… you might have a terrible birthday for one meet but there are others.