Summer swim kids swimming in “wrong” age group

[Anonymous]

I look forward to seeing the complaints about 14 year olds who are actually 14 but turn 15 on August 10 or September 1 if the rule were changed to August 1. “Legitimate but but but almost non-legitimate.” What a bunch of idiots. And to the person who outed a just-turned 13 year old swimming with 11-12s in - gasp - middle school, let me blow your mind. Non-redshirted 11 year olds with august and September birthdays are also in … *middle school*! Even some 10 year olds if you make the Sept 30 cutoff in VA!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, what a bunch of whiners. There has to be a cutoff date. Good for some, bad for others. Oh well.

It’s so true there will be complaining either way but which complaint has more merit: there is a 13 year old competing against 11-12 year olds or there is a 13 year old who is competing against 13-14 year olds?

But this falls apart upon any close analysis.

Yes, an 11 year old might compete against a 13 year old. But not a just-turned 11 year old (who would wind up competing against younger kids). And the 13 yr old is a just-turned 13 yr old. So the idea that this is some massive age difference is silly. It's not. It's around 18 months. Just like if you aged up the kid on their birthday, they could be a just-turned 13 yr old competing against kids who are almost 15. Again -- about 18 months.

Meaning it doesn't matter. It's arbitrary and either way, you'll have kids who are 18+ months apart competing against each other. It will feel a little unfair to the younger kid and a little advantageous for the older kid (in some cases, plenty of kids are big or small for their age so it's not actually that clear cut), but it's not a huge deal. And it happens no matter where the cut offs are.

It’s not the massive difference in age - it’s the massive difference in bodies. A 13 year girl could be fully done with puberty - and done growing, compared with an 11 year old. A 15 year old boy is typically massive compared to his 13-14 year old counterparts. Those boys like up and many of the fastest kids are 6’+ compared to boys who may be 5’3 + or -. Go watch these line ups. The remainder of the swim year, you swim the age group that you are on day one of the meet.

It's a two year window whether it runs June-June or August-August or kids age up on their birthdays. Still the exact same 2 year age range within the division. Identical. 24 months to the day.

Exactly. I dont see the drama.

Not when they are under “8.” This isn’t how swim is done for any other USA swimming meet - you age up, when you age up. There are still great swim bdays then, but it doesn’t change the age up.

This isn’t USA swimming! Therefore the rules don’t apply. It’s apples and oranges. It’s recreational summer swim for a few weeks during the summer. Why is this difference so hard for folks to understand? Kids can’t be switching age groups from one week to the next or aging out between the last meet and divisionals it’s downright stupid to tell a little kid Sorry your bday was this week you are out of all stars. It’s at most 8 weeks.

This isn’t a year round individual swim program with kids trying to make the junior Olympics (unless I’m missing something times at these meets can’t be used to qualify for the Olympic trials). It’s for fun and it’s about being part of a team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pp's notion that every team's last few dual meets are "typically against better teams" is ridiculous. One team has to swim against the worst team in the division every week. And despite the best attempts at seedings teams for parity, it's often the case that teams vastly under or over-perform their seedings (e.g., a team expected to be the best team in the division is actually the weakest team and vice versa). Look at D3, OKM was the lowest seed but ended up with the best record; DT was the top seed but ended up with the worst record.

That’s the way it has worked in division one. Regardless, you haven’t addressed how a divisional championship can be awarded when teams are swimming each other with different rosters. It’s not a level playing field and again, reflects a failure to understand what the league is- a two month long team competition. The rules for club swim make sense in the context of club swimming. This is not that. That’s the appeal of summer swim for kids who don’t want to do it year round.

It’s perfectly rational to be a club only swimmer- hell, probably the most successful Nova swimmer of the past few years didn’t participate in the NVSL. But it’s odd to keep insisting that the team aspect of this league be minimized in service of individual rankings and awards. That’s what makes summer swim different and appealing, particularly as an entry point for kids who don’t swim year round.

Is Division 1 really your frame of reference for an appealing entry point for kids who don't swim year round??

[Anonymous]

Again, who cares? My 14 year old is going to senior zones this week. Could she have gone to age group zones? Sure. For swimmers, it's about getting best times and having fun. Can we put this thread to rest now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If birthday cut-off were at the end of the season, the rosters would stay the same throughout and you wouldn't have 9, 11, and 13 years old winning the top prizes at the end of season meet for the respective 8&u, 9-10, and 11-12 age groups.

Right, you would have kids who are 8 for most of the season being forced to swim 9-10, though they are neither 9 nor 10 on that date. In either scenario, you have kids who swim in meets in one age group when their actual age is not one of the numbers of that age group.

Comments like this make clear that this whole idea is primarily about parents who wish to advantage their specific children, not fidelity of age groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pp's notion that every team's last few dual meets are "typically against better teams" is ridiculous. One team has to swim against the worst team in the division every week. And despite the best attempts at seedings teams for parity, it's often the case that teams vastly under or over-perform their seedings (e.g., a team expected to be the best team in the division is actually the weakest team and vice versa). Look at D3, OKM was the lowest seed but ended up with the best record; DT was the top seed but ended up with the worst record.

That’s the way it has worked in division one. Regardless, you haven’t addressed how a divisional championship can be awarded when teams are swimming each other with different rosters. It’s not a level playing field and again, reflects a failure to understand what the league is- a two month long team competition. The rules for club swim make sense in the context of club swimming. This is not that. That’s the appeal of summer swim for kids who don’t want to do it year round.

It’s perfectly rational to be a club only swimmer- hell, probably the most successful Nova swimmer of the past few years didn’t participate in the NVSL. But it’s odd to keep insisting that the team aspect of this league be minimized in service of individual rankings and awards. That’s what makes summer swim different and appealing, particularly as an entry point for kids who don’t swim year round.

Is Division 1 really your frame of reference for an appealing entry point for kids who don't swim year round??

It is, as I have two swimmers who swim in division one, one even at -gasp- all stars, and they don’t swim year round. Our swim team has like 200 kids and the majority don’t swim year round.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pp's notion that every team's last few dual meets are "typically against better teams" is ridiculous. One team has to swim against the worst team in the division every week. And despite the best attempts at seedings teams for parity, it's often the case that teams vastly under or over-perform their seedings (e.g., a team expected to be the best team in the division is actually the weakest team and vice versa). Look at D3, OKM was the lowest seed but ended up with the best record; DT was the top seed but ended up with the worst record.

That’s the way it has worked in division one. Regardless, you haven’t addressed how a divisional championship can be awarded when teams are swimming each other with different rosters. It’s not a level playing field and again, reflects a failure to understand what the league is- a two month long team competition. The rules for club swim make sense in the context of club swimming. This is not that. That’s the appeal of summer swim for kids who don’t want to do it year round.

It’s perfectly rational to be a club only swimmer- hell, probably the most successful Nova swimmer of the past few years didn’t participate in the NVSL. But it’s odd to keep insisting that the team aspect of this league be minimized in service of individual rankings and awards. That’s what makes summer swim different and appealing, particularly as an entry point for kids who don’t swim year round.

Is Division 1 really your frame of reference for an appealing entry point for kids who don't swim year round??

It is, as I have two swimmers who swim in division one, one even at -gasp- all stars, and they don’t swim year round. Our swim team has like 200 kids and the majority don’t swim year round.

And I should add- I’m commenting repeatedly on the distinction between summer and club swim because my kids absolutely love being on their team, even though one of them has never made an A meet. They have zero desire to swim year round. I commented above, but as a former swimmer who has swum at every level from summer league through NCAA I’m truly baffled by the shortsightedness of people who are pushing to change the character of summer league to be an extension of year round club swimming. For anyone who cares about growing the sport, summer teams are how you get new kids in the water precisely because it’s different. But if you don’t get it, you don’t get it. What can I say.

[Anonymous]

Oct 31 Deadline — Submittal of Rule Changes

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s an interesting point. My son is a small 7 and he is racing against kids that turned 9 mid season. There is a huge difference between a 7 year old and a 9 year old in height, weight, strength.

Hang on…wait til your swimmer is 11 swimming against that kid when he’s 13.

You poor thing. Your 11 year old swimmer must not be very fast. My 11 year old swimmer can hold their own against the 13 year olds.

Gosh. You're an awful person. Get help.

Parents of kids with summer birthdays are used to always having their kid be the youngest. It happens over and over. It seems a bit ridiculous to hear the parents of kids with school year birthdays to suddenly get bent out of shape that their kid no longer has the advantage in just this one thing. They'll harp on and on about how redshirting is wrong and age cut offs must be respected. Or how after 1st grade it doesn't really matter that their kid is 12 months older, that doesn't give an advantage, their kid is just very athletic. Yet here there is just one June 1st cutoff--the only one I've ever heard of--and those same parents are up in arms. Well, welcome to how it feels. It's no different than my 8 yo being in basketball tryouts with almost 11 yos who have already hit puberty and have 40 lbs and 14 inches on her. (And in this case the disadvantage is only for the fun summer season, your kid can still do winter swim with age cutoffs. With basketball it's the same cutoff for rec, AAU and travel so she'll never have an opportunity to not be the very youngest.)

Yes, its this exactly that is rubbing me the wrong way. I have 2 summer bday kids (who are not club swimmers). When I first read this thread, I thought well I was not allowed to make excuses for my kids behavior in school "because they were the youngest" nor do I make excuses in all the other sports they participate in by grade level where redshirted kids are literally 3 years older than my kids. I just let them play the sport and strive to get better. I have one kid that is tiny and that kid is often 8-10 inches shorter than the other kids on the soccer field. They have had to learn over the years not to be afraid to get in there and mix it up with the bigger kids if they want to get the ball.

Let's be real, for most/all of our kids sports is a way to have fun, teach discipline and sportsmanship. This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth about swim in general. I am so happy to watch my kids do the cheers, hang over lanes to encourage their friends and goof around between races (especially after 2 years of covid). Parents who are complaining about a random date, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

This is a little different though because there are defined age groups in summer swim, but then if your birthday falls in an 8 week period you are allowed to swim in an age group that you have aged out of. It’s also weird to see the listing of the kids’ ages in heat sheets and see Larla Smith age 10 when everyone knows that Larla Smith is actually age 11.

This happens in other sports, though. It happens in baseball, where the age cutoff for the 6+ summer tournaments my kids played in was May 1, so kids (including one of mine) were playing ___U baseball up to 2-3 months after they turned the next age (i.e., playing 9U baseball for the summer after turning 10 in May). And yeah, everyone knows that a fair number of kids in the tournament playing 9U (or 10U, or whatever) are not actually that age. The point is that they created a defined, one year age group - which in that case, is May 1 - April 30 - and everyone with a birthday in that one year age band is in that age group.

My kids are relatively young, but I swam growing up, eventually on scholarship at an NCAA division 1 program- genuine question, do these 15-18 kids not do high school swimming? We did club swimming growing up, but the focus was the HS season, where I was a 14 year old 9th grader swimming against 18-19 year old HS seniors. I'll be honest, I'm struggling to understand why this is so harmful, particularly on the girls' side. And if the concern is that kids are returning to summer league after a year in an NCAA program, then prohibit that- a strictly age-based rule won't do it. I (and plenty of other kids, I'm sure) was 18 until September of my sophomore year of college and could have competed even if you changed the age ranges.

There is a reason for that in team sports vs individual because there are positions on the court/in the field that need to be filled in team sports, as well as developing team chemistry, etc. None of those considerations come into play in swimming, it’s you against the clock. There is literally no reason for there to be kids who have aged out of a group swimming down. It’s a short season, set the cutoff date on August 1st or August 15th (to make sure all stars is complete) and be done with it. It’s so counterintuitive to have swim leagues that start Memorial Day and have an age up cutoff on June 1st as opposed to August at the end of the season. If the cutoff is august no one could complain about 13 year olds swimming in the 11-12 age group.

Yikes, talk about missing the point. First- As someone else said, any way you slice it, kids within a 24 month band are swimming against one another, except at the senior level. That’s consistent with the way other sports do it. And as others have pointed out, you do have the issue of a relay swimmer being eligible during one part of the season but not at all stars. You seem to be really concerned with the logic of a 13 year old being assigned to the 11-12 age group, but keep phrasing it as though that kid is wrongfully swimming against kids who are more than 2 years younger. It’s kind of bizarre, and my point was that for the sake of ease and consistency that’s what other sports do. To the extent there is a concern about the 15-18 age range, if people are this concerned with consistency with club swimming, I’m surprised you’re not pushing for a separate 15-16 age group.

Second- I reference high school swimming because NVSL is more akin to that, and frankly I feel like you and other posters here don’t have a lot of experience with swimming in a team vs club environment. The difference between NVSL and club swimming is that teams develop lineups and compete in dual meets and divisional meets, and that championships are awarded based on what happens over the course of 6+ weeks. Swimming is an individual sport but NVSL is a team competition. That’s why it’s fun, FFS! The season is literally 5 dual meets long, plus capstone all star and champions meets, which are based on performance during the season. In your scenario, say my team has a great 10 year old who turns 11 on June 30th. So that kid is eligible to swim 9-10, and then is moved up for the last few dual meets. But those meets are typically against better teams. How do you fairly determine division winners? I.e., Chesterbrook has the best record but they got to swim tuckahoe when 4 kids had aged up, whereas Overlee had to swim them before. Are teams to look at their lineups and lobby the league to swim their toughest teams early in the season before anyone can age up? (My kids’ team is in division one, and I can guarantee you this would be a bone of contention). This is not a club meet- it’s not JOs and it’s not zones, or whatever other club meet your kids do in the winter and it’s not correct to say that lineups dont matter, and it’s simply the swimmer against the clock. If that were true, why would age group matter at all?

I’m a PP, and this issue really doesn’t matter to me because my kid is a club swimmer that has been able to compete even with kids who are swimming down, but pretending the lineups are a huge deal is a little disingenuous. For our team there are multiple kids that filter in and out of the last slots based on their times, people are on vacation, etc., so there isn’t a whole lot of this continuity you are talking about. It’s not like having to change up point guards midway through a season in basketball. And if the lineup thing is so important, why should teams get to pad their lineup with kids that aren’t in the age group they are swimming in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oct 31 Deadline — Submittal of Rule Changes

Is this NVSL?

Don't spend time on it if you are MCSL, someone submitted a proposal recently (? pre-Covid, within 5y if I remember correctly)... dead in the water

Also, if I remember correctly, the proposal was to change the date from June 1 to July 15 or 31 or some such.

[Anonymous]

Yes, the Oct 31 date is specified in the NVSL handbook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s an interesting point. My son is a small 7 and he is racing against kids that turned 9 mid season. There is a huge difference between a 7 year old and a 9 year old in height, weight, strength.

Hang on…wait til your swimmer is 11 swimming against that kid when he’s 13.

You poor thing. Your 11 year old swimmer must not be very fast. My 11 year old swimmer can hold their own against the 13 year olds.

Gosh. You're an awful person. Get help.

Parents of kids with summer birthdays are used to always having their kid be the youngest. It happens over and over. It seems a bit ridiculous to hear the parents of kids with school year birthdays to suddenly get bent out of shape that their kid no longer has the advantage in just this one thing. They'll harp on and on about how redshirting is wrong and age cut offs must be respected. Or how after 1st grade it doesn't really matter that their kid is 12 months older, that doesn't give an advantage, their kid is just very athletic. Yet here there is just one June 1st cutoff--the only one I've ever heard of--and those same parents are up in arms. Well, welcome to how it feels. It's no different than my 8 yo being in basketball tryouts with almost 11 yos who have already hit puberty and have 40 lbs and 14 inches on her. (And in this case the disadvantage is only for the fun summer season, your kid can still do winter swim with age cutoffs. With basketball it's the same cutoff for rec, AAU and travel so she'll never have an opportunity to not be the very youngest.)

Yes, its this exactly that is rubbing me the wrong way. I have 2 summer bday kids (who are not club swimmers). When I first read this thread, I thought well I was not allowed to make excuses for my kids behavior in school "because they were the youngest" nor do I make excuses in all the other sports they participate in by grade level where redshirted kids are literally 3 years older than my kids. I just let them play the sport and strive to get better. I have one kid that is tiny and that kid is often 8-10 inches shorter than the other kids on the soccer field. They have had to learn over the years not to be afraid to get in there and mix it up with the bigger kids if they want to get the ball.

Let's be real, for most/all of our kids sports is a way to have fun, teach discipline and sportsmanship. This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth about swim in general. I am so happy to watch my kids do the cheers, hang over lanes to encourage their friends and goof around between races (especially after 2 years of covid). Parents who are complaining about a random date, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

This is a little different though because there are defined age groups in summer swim, but then if your birthday falls in an 8 week period you are allowed to swim in an age group that you have aged out of. It’s also weird to see the listing of the kids’ ages in heat sheets and see Larla Smith age 10 when everyone knows that Larla Smith is actually age 11.

This happens in other sports, though. It happens in baseball, where the age cutoff for the 6+ summer tournaments my kids played in was May 1, so kids (including one of mine) were playing ___U baseball up to 2-3 months after they turned the next age (i.e., playing 9U baseball for the summer after turning 10 in May). And yeah, everyone knows that a fair number of kids in the tournament playing 9U (or 10U, or whatever) are not actually that age. The point is that they created a defined, one year age group - which in that case, is May 1 - April 30 - and everyone with a birthday in that one year age band is in that age group.

My kids are relatively young, but I swam growing up, eventually on scholarship at an NCAA division 1 program- genuine question, do these 15-18 kids not do high school swimming? We did club swimming growing up, but the focus was the HS season, where I was a 14 year old 9th grader swimming against 18-19 year old HS seniors. I'll be honest, I'm struggling to understand why this is so harmful, particularly on the girls' side. And if the concern is that kids are returning to summer league after a year in an NCAA program, then prohibit that- a strictly age-based rule won't do it. I (and plenty of other kids, I'm sure) was 18 until September of my sophomore year of college and could have competed even if you changed the age ranges.

There is a reason for that in team sports vs individual because there are positions on the court/in the field that need to be filled in team sports, as well as developing team chemistry, etc. None of those considerations come into play in swimming, it’s you against the clock. There is literally no reason for there to be kids who have aged out of a group swimming down. It’s a short season, set the cutoff date on August 1st or August 15th (to make sure all stars is complete) and be done with it. It’s so counterintuitive to have swim leagues that start Memorial Day and have an age up cutoff on June 1st as opposed to August at the end of the season. If the cutoff is august no one could complain about 13 year olds swimming in the 11-12 age group.

Yikes, talk about missing the point. First- As someone else said, any way you slice it, kids within a 24 month band are swimming against one another, except at the senior level. That’s consistent with the way other sports do it. And as others have pointed out, you do have the issue of a relay swimmer being eligible during one part of the season but not at all stars. You seem to be really concerned with the logic of a 13 year old being assigned to the 11-12 age group, but keep phrasing it as though that kid is wrongfully swimming against kids who are more than 2 years younger. It’s kind of bizarre, and my point was that for the sake of ease and consistency that’s what other sports do. To the extent there is a concern about the 15-18 age range, if people are this concerned with consistency with club swimming, I’m surprised you’re not pushing for a separate 15-16 age group.

Second- I reference high school swimming because NVSL is more akin to that, and frankly I feel like you and other posters here don’t have a lot of experience with swimming in a team vs club environment. The difference between NVSL and club swimming is that teams develop lineups and compete in dual meets and divisional meets, and that championships are awarded based on what happens over the course of 6+ weeks. Swimming is an individual sport but NVSL is a team competition. That’s why it’s fun, FFS! The season is literally 5 dual meets long, plus capstone all star and champions meets, which are based on performance during the season. In your scenario, say my team has a great 10 year old who turns 11 on June 30th. So that kid is eligible to swim 9-10, and then is moved up for the last few dual meets. But those meets are typically against better teams. How do you fairly determine division winners? I.e., Chesterbrook has the best record but they got to swim tuckahoe when 4 kids had aged up, whereas Overlee had to swim them before. Are teams to look at their lineups and lobby the league to swim their toughest teams early in the season before anyone can age up? (My kids’ team is in division one, and I can guarantee you this would be a bone of contention). This is not a club meet- it’s not JOs and it’s not zones, or whatever other club meet your kids do in the winter and it’s not correct to say that lineups dont matter, and it’s simply the swimmer against the clock. If that were true, why would age group matter at all?

I’m a PP, and this issue really doesn’t matter to me because my kid is a club swimmer that has been able to compete even with kids who are swimming down, but pretending the lineups are a huge deal is a little disingenuous. For our team there are multiple kids that filter in and out of the last slots based on their times, people are on vacation, etc., so there isn’t a whole lot of this continuity you are talking about. It’s not like having to change up point guards midway through a season in basketball. And if the lineup thing is so important, why should teams get to pad their lineup with kids that aren’t in the age group they are swimming in?

I’m going to stop posting because there seems to be some true, deliberate attempts at failing to grasp the point. You and others keep insisting that kids at the top of the age group dominate summer swim, so we’re not talking about the kids who filter in and out of last slots. We’re talking about a team which has a roster including multiple top kids in meet one, and not having those kids in meet 5. If all of these purportedly overage kids are at the bottom of the roster, why would you guys care so much? These are the ringers, right? And basketball point guards take vacations too- that’s not what we’re talking about either.

You’re never going to win this argument so long as you keep insisting that kids aren’t in the age group they’re swimming in or are swimming down. NVSL rules define the age groups. I and numerous other people have explained to you why it’s appropriate in a team oriented league to use a single age cutoff date for the entire season. No one is swimming down. If you know of a swimmer who doesn’t meet the age requirements for the league, by all means, point it out and have them disqualified. If not, please trust- you’re not doing your kid or team any by constantly insinuating, falsely, that their competitors are cheating.

Best of luck next summer, may all of your aggrieved kids be forever guaranteed to swim only against smaller and younger kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oct 31 Deadline — Submittal of Rule Changes

Is this NVSL?

Don't spend time on it if you are MCSL, someone submitted a proposal recently (? pre-Covid, within 5y if I remember correctly)... dead in the water

Also, if I remember correctly, the proposal was to change the date from June 1 to July 15 or 31 or some such.

The date should be July 31 or august 1. Every kid would swim their age that summer and then age up for the following summer. June 1 is BS

[Anonymous]

To summarize ..

Yes, the cut-off is arbitrary. Yes, no one (presumably) is purposely violating the current cut-off date to swim in a lower age group (and no one suggested otherwise). Yes, the current cut-off date allows some older kids to swim in lower age groups, which obviously rubs some people the wrong way.

People should be able to agree to these facts and at least consider alternatives without getting bent out of shape.

[Anonymous]

Im glad NVSL picks a date. And no matter what the date is, some insane parent will whine about their kids being disadvantaged. BooHoo.

But I wish NVSL was considered a high school league, and once you have graduated from high school, you should be ineligible.