At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two observations:

1) Many people here seem to be basing their beliefs on this on their past experience as a "middle class" person. I know many people like this in my life. They grew up UMC but don't seem to realize it, either because their parents basically lied to them their whole lives or because of some artificial or temporary circumstances that made them feel like their family was struggling even though it wasn't. For instance, I know a lot of doctors' kids like this. They may remember some years when they were young when their doctor parent was a resident and things were tight. But by the time they were in high school, their family was firmly UMC and their parents could pay for things like private school for multiple kids, college without loans, grad degrees, assist with down payments on houses, pay for large weddings, etc. People like this live with a myth about their upbringing and it makes them overlook the many, many unusual advantages they have. So as adults, they don't "feel" well off until they have a nicer lifestyle than their parents. They don't understand their parents were, and are, very well off.

2) As an actual middle class person (125k HHI) who also grew up actually middle class (parent HHI was between 50k and 80k as I grew up) I would argue that the experience of being middle class has not actually changed that much. The amount of money it takes to pay for the same stuff has changed, but the lifestyle is similar. You can afford to own a home, but it will be small, or far out, or not updated, or potentially all three. You can have kids but the burden of additional kids is huge, largely because of the skyrocketing costs of college. Your kids go to public schools, and the schools are ok but problematic in pretty much all middle class neighborhoods. You might be able to move into a better school, but you will need to make serious sacrifices -- renting an apartment in an ancient building, for instance. You are unlikely to be able to buy in at this point, even if you are willing to buy the crappiest house or a tiny condo. You can take vacations but it's mostly via car (it's hard to afford airfare except maybe once every few years). You rarely stay in hotels and when you do they are budget. You don't eat out a lot. Most of your disposable income goes to stuff that richer people view as necessities (activities for kids, for instance). And so on. This is how I grew up, it's how I live now. The biggest difference is that we have school debt (neither of my parents had to take out loans to attend their public colleges) and we are terrified of how much college will cost for our one child. We stopped at one in large part for this reason, and even then, this is the largest source of financial stress, especially because our kid has turned out to be a smart, academic kid who will definitely want/need college to pursue an appropriate career, but is not some kind of superstar (and we can't afford to make them look like one the way rich people can). The cost of higher education is one of the central concerns on which I will vote moving forward because as things currently stand, our kid will either need to take out enormous loans or forgo college at even a state university. Maybe community college would be an option, but even there the ROI seems bad.

NP bumping to say thank you to those who contributed to this thread, and especially PP in the above quote.

I seriously have been wondering what’s wrong with me that changes in my HHI income over the years have resulted in so few changes to my lifestyle or class identification, and this thread made me realize it’s because I’m in PP’s Group 1.

My parents did indeed fund private school (boarding, no less), college, graduate school, wedding, and down payments. We also traveled extensively both internationally and domestically. Because they did this while clipping coupons, shopping at off-price retailers, and flying economy, I actually grew up thinking and feeling we were middle class.

By the time I left home for undergrad, I understood our family was at minimum upper middle class and I felt that way as well. That UMC feeling hasn’t changed since, despite significant fluctuations in income, including multiple years at zero!

As for lifestyle, not much has changed either - I do tend to fly first now rather than economy, but that’s only because DH plays the points game like a pro. We’re giving DC the same advantages my parents gave me, and also trying to instill a similarly frugal mindset.

This thread truly has helped me recognize my immense privilege. Thank you again.

Unless you were homeless, having multiple years at zero likely means you're upper class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you say “middle class” do you mean old days middle class, or nowadays middle class? There’s a difference. Nowadays middle class are actually pretty poor…struggling to pay bills and clipping coupons and forgoing college and health care because both are astronomical. In the old days middle class had the Subaru and took a summer vacation and so forth. Anyway, I agree with around $400k.

Middle class is not $400K. You are extremely wealthy, probably living in a million dollar house. Middle class live in small, $300-400K homes max or rent. They are living on a tight budget. They dont' have savings, retirement, etc.

Where are there $300K-$400k homes in the DC area? Are you in another part of the country? I live in a dump duplex that would cost $850+ if I bought today (paid $580k 12 yrs ago).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two observations:

1) Many people here seem to be basing their beliefs on this on their past experience as a "middle class" person. I know many people like this in my life. They grew up UMC but don't seem to realize it, either because their parents basically lied to them their whole lives or because of some artificial or temporary circumstances that made them feel like their family was struggling even though it wasn't. For instance, I know a lot of doctors' kids like this. They may remember some years when they were young when their doctor parent was a resident and things were tight. But by the time they were in high school, their family was firmly UMC and their parents could pay for things like private school for multiple kids, college without loans, grad degrees, assist with down payments on houses, pay for large weddings, etc. People like this live with a myth about their upbringing and it makes them overlook the many, many unusual advantages they have. So as adults, they don't "feel" well off until they have a nicer lifestyle than their parents. They don't understand their parents were, and are, very well off.

2) As an actual middle class person (125k HHI) who also grew up actually middle class (parent HHI was between 50k and 80k as I grew up) I would argue that the experience of being middle class has not actually changed that much. The amount of money it takes to pay for the same stuff has changed, but the lifestyle is similar. You can afford to own a home, but it will be small, or far out, or not updated, or potentially all three. You can have kids but the burden of additional kids is huge, largely because of the skyrocketing costs of college. Your kids go to public schools, and the schools are ok but problematic in pretty much all middle class neighborhoods. You might be able to move into a better school, but you will need to make serious sacrifices -- renting an apartment in an ancient building, for instance. You are unlikely to be able to buy in at this point, even if you are willing to buy the crappiest house or a tiny condo. You can take vacations but it's mostly via car (it's hard to afford airfare except maybe once every few years). You rarely stay in hotels and when you do they are budget. You don't eat out a lot. Most of your disposable income goes to stuff that richer people view as necessities (activities for kids, for instance). And so on. This is how I grew up, it's how I live now. The biggest difference is that we have school debt (neither of my parents had to take out loans to attend their public colleges) and we are terrified of how much college will cost for our one child. We stopped at one in large part for this reason, and even then, this is the largest source of financial stress, especially because our kid has turned out to be a smart, academic kid who will definitely want/need college to pursue an appropriate career, but is not some kind of superstar (and we can't afford to make them look like one the way rich people can). The cost of higher education is one of the central concerns on which I will vote moving forward because as things currently stand, our kid will either need to take out enormous loans or forgo college at even a state university. Maybe community college would be an option, but even there the ROI seems bad.

NP bumping to say thank you to those who contributed to this thread, and especially PP in the above quote.

I seriously have been wondering what’s wrong with me that changes in my HHI income over the years have resulted in so few changes to my lifestyle or class identification, and this thread made me realize it’s because I’m in PP’s Group 1.

My parents did indeed fund private school (boarding, no less), college, graduate school, wedding, and down payments. We also traveled extensively both internationally and domestically. Because they did this while clipping coupons, shopping at off-price retailers, and flying economy, I actually grew up thinking and feeling we were middle class.

By the time I left home for undergrad, I understood our family was at minimum upper middle class and I felt that way as well. That UMC feeling hasn’t changed since, despite significant fluctuations in income, including multiple years at zero!

As for lifestyle, not much has changed either - I do tend to fly first now rather than economy, but that’s only because DH plays the points game like a pro. We’re giving DC the same advantages my parents gave me, and also trying to instill a similarly frugal mindset.

This thread truly has helped me recognize my immense privilege. Thank you again.

Unless you were homeless, having multiple years at zero likely means you're upper class

Yes, you’re probably right! My point is that I *felt* UMC at zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y’all are overthinking this. Do you use the top of your fridge as extra storage? You’re middle class. Is your fridge cabinet depth? You rich.

Haha, this tracks (I've got some serving trays and a paella pan on top of my fridge, which does not fit properly into the cabinet opening for it so there's this 7 inch gap between the fridge and the upper cabinet, plus the fridge sticks out an extra 4-5 inches). I'm super middle class.

[Anonymous]

We make a combined 300k and feel middle class, but know we are definitely upper middle class. We have two kids in private school and are paying full tuition, own our house, just bought a new car and don’t really have a grocery budget (buy whatever we want). No way a middle class person could do that comfortably.

[Anonymous]

I thought if my couch touches a wall I am middle class. I moved my couch off the wall and now i'm UMC

We make 700k but still feel broke. Leases on Range Rovers are so much more expensive than they used to be! And since when did St Albans start charging $50k a year. UGH! We had to stop 401k contributions..oh well

[Anonymous]

We have a HHI of $260k but we are still in the daycare years with our kids. We live in a VERY outdated house (original 1960s kitchen and bathrooms). Still paying off student loans.

[Anonymous]

The answer is "X + 100k", with X being whatever your HHI is now.

[Anonymous]

750k with all student loans paid off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you say “middle class” do you mean old days middle class, or nowadays middle class? There’s a difference. Nowadays middle class are actually pretty poor…struggling to pay bills and clipping coupons and forgoing college and health care because both are astronomical. In the old days middle class had the Subaru and took a summer vacation and so forth. Anyway, I agree with around $400k.

Middle class is not $400K. You are extremely wealthy, probably living in a million dollar house. Middle class live in small, $300-400K homes max or rent. They are living on a tight budget. They dont' have savings, retirement, etc.

Where are there $300K-$400k homes in the DC area? Are you in another part of the country? I live in a dump duplex that would cost $850+ if I bought today (paid $580k 12 yrs ago).

Wheaton, Silver Spring...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you say “middle class” do you mean old days middle class, or nowadays middle class? There’s a difference. Nowadays middle class are actually pretty poor…struggling to pay bills and clipping coupons and forgoing college and health care because both are astronomical. In the old days middle class had the Subaru and took a summer vacation and so forth. Anyway, I agree with around $400k.

If the are poor, they are not middle class. Middle class is not the middle of the income spectrum. It is the middle of the lifestyle spectrum and that varies a lot by location. In fact, some people get stuck in a location because they can't afford to live as great a life style elsewhere; whereas, people who work in high COL areas, live a middle class style because of it, but manage to save a lot, can move almost anywhere and be instantly top of the lifestyle ladder and change social class by moving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The answer is "X + 100k", with X being whatever your HHI is now.

This is probably the best answer. The goal post keeps moving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you say “middle class” do you mean old days middle class, or nowadays middle class? There’s a difference. Nowadays middle class are actually pretty poor…struggling to pay bills and clipping coupons and forgoing college and health care because both are astronomical. In the old days middle class had the Subaru and took a summer vacation and so forth. Anyway, I agree with around $400k.

Middle class is not $400K. You are extremely wealthy, probably living in a million dollar house. Middle class live in small, $300-400K homes max or rent. They are living on a tight budget. They dont' have savings, retirement, etc.

Where are there $300K-$400k homes in the DC area? Are you in another part of the country? I live in a dump duplex that would cost $850+ if I bought today (paid $580k 12 yrs ago).

Laurel! SFHs in my neighborhood for sale at $350-$400 right now. Walk or bike to the MARC if that is your jam. Safe and quiet. Utterly middle class.

[Anonymous]

When I put my bills on autopay and didn’t have to check my balance when they were due.

[Anonymous]

Probably 250k in dc is when we stopped feeling “middle class” . We recently crossed 400k and paid off 220k of student loans so definitely breathing easier. I still worry about money though as we haven’t been able to buy a house yet and housing costs have increased so much