Looking for your insights: do narcissists, or the narcissistically inclined, know . . .

[Anonymous]

that they're being narcissistic? Do they have inklings that there's something off center about their world view? Do they know and just not care? Or do they have no idea at all? Many posters have discussed narcissistic behaviors of family members, friends, etc. on DCUM, so, if you're one of these posters, would you share your perspective?

[Anonymous]

I don't think it occurs to them that there's anything off about them, that's part of the problem. I think they think their view of life is the only view or the best view though I do think they can make concessions when it suits their needs. Hmm so maybe they do know but don't care?

[Anonymous]

I would say some know and some don't know. I tend to be one and I sort of figured out that I was one in high school.

[Anonymous]

By your definition - my DH would be considered a narcissist. IME he has no ability to recognize others opinions' or views when it conflicts with his own. Does he realize this is a flaw? No. If he did, that would be a conflict in the idea of being a narcissist.

[Anonymous]

There is a difference between being self-absorbed/self-centered/self-righteous and narcissistic personality disorder, though people frequently mistake the two. My mother has actually been diagnosed as NPD though she (classically!) disagrees. Here is a nice descript of NPD from Psych Today:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a difference between being self-absorbed/self-centered/self-righteous and narcissistic personality disorder, though people frequently mistake the two. My mother has actually been diagnosed as NPD though she (classically!) disagrees. Here is a nice descript of NPD from Psych Today:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

Thanks for this. I think a LOT of people armchair diagnose people who are self-absorbed as being narcissistic. It always bugs me, just like when someone who is indecisive is called "bipolar."

[Anonymous]

My father takes it one step further and is a psychopath. I think he know and does not care. He loses no sleep over it and could care less that eventually everyone figures out he is a loser asshole. He has a sick desire to engage in self gratification, no matter the cost to anyone else.

Shameless is the best way to put it. Complete and total lack of shame.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks to posters, I appreciate these insights.

To 15:19: do you mind if I ask if your mother voluntarily underwent the therapy that led to her NPD diagnosis?

Clinical definitions of narcissists say they don't acknowledge that they have issues, which is why they generally don't voluntarily undergo therapy, and that's what I generally see happening.

On the other hand, I know someone who I have reason to believe was actually diagnosed as NPD who's utterly self-absorbed, yet has shown he has some understanding that he has hurt other people. This doesn't stop him from continuing to hurt other people, and this has included very violent behavior, but occasionally he's shown remorse that seems to be genuine (although temporary). What's more, I believe that it was on his own initiative that he went through the therapy that resulted in an NPD diagnosis.

What's interesting is that he's married to an NPD who also underwent therapy resulting in a diagnosis because he ordered her. She's done a lot of bad things to people, and hasn't demonstrated remorse. Quite the opposite, she's become furious at the suggestion that she doesn't have the right to behave in abusive and physically violent ways toward people she has authority over. I don't believe she would have gone through therapy if she hadn't been ordered to it.

It seems to me that the difference between these two people is that the wife is highly manipulative, and the husband isn't. So both are NPD, but possibly the manipulative behavior signals or goes hand-in-hand with the refusal to accept responsibility?

[Anonymous]

What are some examples of every day life narcissistic behaviors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are some examples of every day life narcissistic behaviors?

examples?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My father takes it one step further and is a psychopath. I think he know and does not care. He loses no sleep over it and could care less that eventually everyone figures out he is a loser asshole. He has a sick desire to engage in self gratification, no matter the cost to anyone else.

Shameless is the best way to put it. Complete and total lack of shame.

I think this is the textbook example of a sociopath. You are right -- he couldn't care less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to posters, I appreciate these insights.

To 15:19: do you mind if I ask if your mother voluntarily underwent the therapy that led to her NPD diagnosis?

Clinical definitions of narcissists say they don't acknowledge that they have issues, which is why they generally don't voluntarily undergo therapy, and that's what I generally see happening.

On the other hand, I know someone who I have reason to believe was actually diagnosed as NPD who's utterly self-absorbed, yet has shown he has some understanding that he has hurt other people. This doesn't stop him from continuing to hurt other people, and this has included very violent behavior, but occasionally he's shown remorse that seems to be genuine (although temporary). What's more, I believe that it was on his own initiative that he went through the therapy that resulted in an NPD diagnosis.

What's interesting is that he's married to an NPD who also underwent therapy resulting in a diagnosis because he ordered her. She's done a lot of bad things to people, and hasn't demonstrated remorse. Quite the opposite, she's become furious at the suggestion that she doesn't have the right to behave in abusive and physically violent ways toward people she has authority over. I don't believe she would have gone through therapy if she hadn't been ordered to it.

It seems to me that the difference between these two people is that the wife is highly manipulative, and the husband isn't. So both are NPD, but possibly the manipulative behavior signals or goes hand-in-hand with the refusal to accept responsibility?

15:19 here. Yes, my mother voluntarily went to therapy, but in her mind it was to help her deal with all the stress that "other people" were causing her. IMHO, NPD is incurable. But it is a spectrum disorder, so it could be that in the situation you're describing the male has slightly more capacity for empathy than the female. My mom has some capacity for remorse for what she did too, but she doesn't actually take genuine responsibility because she hasn't stopped behaving badly. More often, she expresses remorse for the things she when I was little, but blames her actions on others (e.g., if my dad hadn't been such a bastard, she would not have hit me) and actually finds ways to turn herself into the victim so I end up comforting her. Further, she only rarely expresses remorse for the things she does now, and then, only after I force her to do it by cutting off all contact until she apologizes (which I only do for the worst stuff she does). More often, when confronted with the crap things she's done in more recent years, she simply says it never happened or that she doesn't remember and changes the subject.

As for your question about the difference between the people you describe, it doesn't sound like the man is actually taking all that much responsibility if he continues to hurt people. They also both sound manipulative, so it kind of seems like you are focusing on small differences that aren't actually truly meaningful in order to, I don't know, maybe blame one more than the other or try to make one more culpable than the other? Can I ask why you are asking or what you're trying to understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to posters, I appreciate these insights.

To 15:19: do you mind if I ask if your mother voluntarily underwent the therapy that led to her NPD diagnosis?

Clinical definitions of narcissists say they don't acknowledge that they have issues, which is why they generally don't voluntarily undergo therapy, and that's what I generally see happening.

On the other hand, I know someone who I have reason to believe was actually diagnosed as NPD who's utterly self-absorbed, yet has shown he has some understanding that he has hurt other people. This doesn't stop him from continuing to hurt other people, and this has included very violent behavior, but occasionally he's shown remorse that seems to be genuine (although temporary). What's more, I believe that it was on his own initiative that he went through the therapy that resulted in an NPD diagnosis.

What's interesting is that he's married to an NPD who also underwent therapy resulting in a diagnosis because he ordered her. She's done a lot of bad things to people, and hasn't demonstrated remorse. Quite the opposite, she's become furious at the suggestion that she doesn't have the right to behave in abusive and physically violent ways toward people she has authority over. I don't believe she would have gone through therapy if she hadn't been ordered to it.

It seems to me that the difference between these two people is that the wife is highly manipulative, and the husband isn't. So both are NPD, but possibly the manipulative behavior signals or goes hand-in-hand with the refusal to accept responsibility?

15:19 here. Yes, my mother voluntarily went to therapy, but in her mind it was to help her deal with all the stress that "other people" were causing her. IMHO, NPD is incurable. But it is a spectrum disorder, so it could be that in the situation you're describing the male has slightly more capacity for empathy than the female. My mom has some capacity for remorse for what she did too, but she doesn't actually take genuine responsibility because she hasn't stopped behaving badly. More often, she expresses remorse for the things she when I was little, but blames her actions on others (e.g., if my dad hadn't been such a bastard, she would not have hit me) and actually finds ways to turn herself into the victim so I end up comforting her. Further, she only rarely expresses remorse for the things she does now, and then, only after I force her to do it by cutting off all contact until she apologizes (which I only do for the worst stuff she does). More often, when confronted with the crap things she's done in more recent years, she simply says it never happened or that she doesn't remember and changes the subject.

As for your question about the difference between the people you describe, it doesn't sound like the man is actually taking all that much responsibility if he continues to hurt people. They also both sound manipulative, so it kind of seems like you are focusing on small differences that aren't actually truly meaningful in order to, I don't know, maybe blame one more than the other or try to make one more culpable than the other? Can I ask why you are asking or what you're trying to understand?

OP here. Thank you for your response and your thoughts on my situation. I appreciate your willingness to share this information about your family and I''m so sorry for your childhood esperiences that sound pretty grim. Overall, I get the sense that you're dealing well with it, which is impressive.

I wasn't aware that I was trying to make one of the couple more culpable than the other, but I think that's the case - that I am, and that one is. The wife takes such care - has always taken good care, as long as I've known her - to hide her cruel and calculating behavior from her husband because she knows he would not approve of it and would not allow it. And she manipulates her husband, usually with very good success. So I think this must speak to the spectrum you talk about - the man may not be as far along on the spectrum as his wife.

That said, both husband and wife have caused truly terrible things to happen to others. Another person who's aware of the issues with these people has surprised me by expressing the strong conviction that the husband is brutally calculating. That observation, in conjunction with your comment that both the husband and wife sound manipulative, makes me wonder if I'm not understanding the husband after all.

All in all, I'm perplexed by narcissism and the other antisocial disorders that result in the sort of cruel and manipulative behaviors that make victims of their children and other people in narcissist's lives. -And just trying to make sense of this, and figuring out constructive ways to respond.

[Anonymous]

15:19 again. So, this book (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Self-Absorbed-Grown-ups-Getting-Narcissistic/dp/1572245611) really helped me figure out constructive ways to respond. In essence, it says that if you want to keep an NPD in your life - not everyone does - you have to learn to consciously manipulate them. The behavioral techniques I picked up from this book absolutely work and have helped me have a decent, if nowhere near normal, relationship with my mom.

Also, if there are children involved and you want to be helpful to them, the best suggestion I can offer is to reflect back to the kids what normal parents look like and help them see that their parents' anger/bad behavior is a) wrong and b) not their fault. The hardest thing about being a kid in this situation is that you have no idea that other people don't live the same way, and when your parents are cruel, you think you deserve it. Cannot stress how important it is to see healthy parent-child relationships as a way to expose the parents' denial. That said, this is kind of a tall order and unless these people are relatives, you may not want to take this on as a responsibility. It's a lot to ask.

[Anonymous]

PP glad you have learned to live with a NP. I'm on the other end and had to fully cut my father off (though the family thinks he leans more towards psychopath). He did have a brain scan when hospitalized once and the anatomy of his brain is very different. Lots of activity in certain areas, but some almost dead spaces in the frontal lobe. He physically is different and truly has a broken brain.. BUT I still cannot use that as justification to have a relationship. He leaves a wake of misery in his path and is off the charts manipulative. He is very happy in his life. He relishes his behavior and is addicted to manipulating, conning, and gaining the adoration of others under false premises leading to financial and emotional ruin.