APS Closing Nottingham

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

I venture to state that that generation of students really won't care. They aren't the ones who need it. When the next generation that does need it comes along, they can reopen it.

The point is that this generation will need it, because even though APS’s projections are crap, even they show likely overcrowding at Tuckahoe on day 1. But I’ll tell my child that someday their kids may be able to use the school again. I’m sure they’ll be glad to sacrifice.

Projections everywhere are decreasing. The burg rate is dropping.

The birth rate to Arlington parents is as irrelevant a measure as you can develop. It is based on outdated assumptions - namely, that young people move to Arlington, buy a house, and then have babies. Out of 20+ preschoolers in my immediate circle, fewer than 10% fit that pattern. Why? Because Arlington is not a “starter home” community anymore.

Total birth rates mean nothing if every kid in the region ends up here. APS doesn’t even want to try to grapple with behavioral factors. We’re about to see a generational turnover in the housing stock in many neighborhoods and the best they do is shrug.

What do you think they should look at instead? Serious question, because I recall back when they didn't even look at local birth rates (which were going up) and parents pointed out they should look at them.

I don’t know, honestly. Birth rates are relevant to some extent but they don’t tell the whole picture or even a large part of it.

We need a better metric, or way of testing these assumptions for continued validity in the real world. Otherwise we are going to continue to be constantly in a reactionary posture.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

I venture to state that that generation of students really won't care. They aren't the ones who need it. When the next generation that does need it comes along, they can reopen it.

The point is that this generation will need it, because even though APS’s projections are crap, even they show likely overcrowding at Tuckahoe on day 1. But I’ll tell my child that someday their kids may be able to use the school again. I’m sure they’ll be glad to sacrifice.

Projections everywhere are decreasing. The burg rate is dropping.

The birth rate to Arlington parents is as irrelevant a measure as you can develop. It is based on outdated assumptions - namely, that young people move to Arlington, buy a house, and then have babies. Out of 20+ preschoolers in my immediate circle, fewer than 10% fit that pattern. Why? Because Arlington is not a “starter home” community anymore.

Total birth rates mean nothing if every kid in the region ends up here. APS doesn’t even want to try to grapple with behavioral factors. We’re about to see a generational turnover in the housing stock in many neighborhoods and the best they do is shrug.

It's not that different from 10-15 years ago.

APS saw enrollment skyrocket as US birth rates increased. Since ~2007, birth rates have been declining everywhere. So after the current HS cohort graduates, numbers should continue to drop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oakridge and Abingdon and both way more overcrowded than any "move them to Drew" fix would allow. Drew is hemmed in by 395 and Randolph (whose boundaries can't be moved because of walk zone/bussing issues). It's more complicated than just "move these people here". Also, please don't forget that the entire county owes Green Valley a debt for the way the neighborhood has been treated historically. So take a few deeps breaths before your go on and on about how "unfair" this is to a community of people that have enormous resources. It is rare the richest, whitest community members are actually treated unfairly in any sort of broader historical context.

Nottingham is surrounded by schools WITH capacity to take the students easily, right? Closing Nottingham does not push any other school over capacity nearby, right?

I am a SA parent, was on SAWG. And no, Abingdon and Oakridge are not more crowded than there is space in Drew. There are hundreds of empty seats at Drew. Hundreds. Moving kids from adjacent schools, which just so happen to be Hoffman Boston, Oakridge, and Abingdon, not only makes sense geographically, but also just so happens to solve the crowding problem at those two schools for now. I realize you don’t like this, but it’s going to happen. The projected seat deficit is under 300 seats, and there are 300 available seats at just that one school. This gets us to 2028. We will need another school, but not just yet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

Obviously if Nottingham's numbers increased to the extent that APS needed the seats up there, APS will reopen it. What WON'T happen, probably, is that if 22207 keeps going private and its numbers stay down, the school will stay as a swing space, or whatever. Maybe a community center! And if your kids can still have a walkable, great, nearby school but just a teeny bit further away, and the county doesn't have to waste money paying staff for serving a fraction of the population that other schools are serving -- that's a win for the county if not for you personally.

You all weren't very concerned when McKinley was the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" -- in fact you pointed the missile at them to save yourselves from the option school fate. I don't think the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" argument should hold any water. You're not going to find any parents in Arlington who are like, "oh yeah, let's totally burn this school down to the ground." People love their schools. But if your school is underutilized as yours is -- and as Nottingham parents have contributed to making it so -- don't try to float your special love for your school as some reason it should stay open when it's needed by APS. If Nottingham parents REALLY love their school so much, they should put their kids where their mouths are and come back from private. Otherwise, learn to deal with reality maybe.

The fact that the most wealthy portion of the population is going private will have a long term impact on the school district negatively. Mark my words. It’s a historic change in APS and one the school system just wants to ignore, saying who needs those people. Public schools need them long term.

This. Over the long term do you want to look like ACPS?

How do you propose to get them back exactly? And it’s not really “getting them back.” Demographics have changed. Wealthier families skew private, even in areas with “good” schools. The wealthier the population, the more who will be in private. Unless you can turn back time and make Arlington more affordable, I don’t know what you have in mind.

I don’t know, but closing the neighborhood school, having 25+ kids crammed into each Kindergarten class helmed by a long-term sub instead of a properly licensed and hired teacher, and having more 3-4 day weeks than full 5 day weeks with no option for aftercare isn’t going to do it. APS is pretty much begging every family that has the ability to take their kids and bail out.

Wealthy people don’t need vouchers, but every “lower UMC” family is going to feel a real pinch from private school tuition. Every single one of those families now becomes susceptible to a Youngkin voucher push. Democrats in other places have supported vouchers when they felt the schools were no longer serving them well - we are not immune to that here.

Well, K classes are supposed to be capped at 23. As for hiring teachers, do you think they’re not trying? What might’ve happened in the recent past that has made that harder? I hear you on the 3-4 day weeks. It’s stupid, and a real inconvenience for families, especially considering how few actual students we have celebrating some of these observed holidays. But, I guess that’s part of being in a pluralistic society. It’s not like we’re an outlier. Most neighboring districts have already or are going to observe the same holidays. If this is what drives you out, I think you were looking for reasons.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Fairlington community center is actually really well-used.

I’m sure it is, but it’s also the best hope of reducing overcrowding south of 50. The fact that SA doesn’t want to make that choice doesn’t mean other school zones should be made to suffer in “solidarity.” Especially when these zones have done a fair bit of suffering in recent years and continue to remain very popular with families with school-aged children.

You act as if this is on the table. It’s not, never has been. APS doesn’t own Fairlington and the County isn’t going to offer up a highly utilized Community Center. They won’t even offer up the underutilized ones. What are you even talking about? Also, this isn’t where they need a school in SA. Abingdon is around the corner. It would be another stupid move to create two schools with overlapping wall zones.

Yeah this isn't a realistic plan. What is a realistic plan is to use the MPSA building that they are vacating, conveniently in 2026 just in time to turn it into a swing-space. Centrally located and already a school! And empty too! On a major road that can handle buses!

Or just use the retrofitted Career Center and leave MPSA in place.
That would be far less expensive.

MPSA is already set to vacate that building though. The question now is what happens after they vacate.

So let me get this straight. APS is literally tearing down an Elementary School where they need one?

Yes.

No it’s not. And if they would just redraw the Drew boundaries to actually fill the school, SA probably will be okay until we can build another new school, which is really needed in the Pentagon City area. That was always where the next new ES was going to be sited, ever since the SAWG.

Why won’t they? How can they leave a school so under capacity when others near it are overcrowded?

This is a rhetorical Q. I know why actually. I remember how bitterly parents fought rezoning to Drew. For all you in SA rushing to judgment to close Nottingham, maybe look in your own backyard. How is is a waste of resources to keep Nottingham open but ok to keep Drew underutilized?

I'm confident you all up in the north would have happily redistricted your kids to fill a "Drew" in your area. You all can't bring yourselves to redistrict to an equally high performing, high economic status school; but you're faulting SA parents for not wanting to leave their high performing, more economically diverse, even award-winning schools to go to not just the lowest-performing Arlington school but a very low performing school?

I don't remember any Nottingham parents being opposed to being moved to Discovery when it first opened, even thought it was new school with no track record, all new teachers, new admins, etc. It was very needed as the situation at N'ham then was untenable. People got that.

What I see people opposing now is a plan that makes no sense. Closing one school to move kids to an overcrowded school tends not to be popular. And for good reason. I doubt you'd be for it if your kids were involved.

You parents in Abingdon wouldn't even agree to move your kids from an overcrowded school to a nearby undercrowded one so you have zero credibility.

I'm not an Abindgon parent. But you're still missing or avoiding my point that NES was going to equally performing school rather than to a "Drew." If it had been an underperforming school like Drew, they absolutely would have put up a fight...and yes they fought any change, so don't try to sell us on "oh we'll gladly go to Discovery and we're so happy, anything for the greater good"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oakridge and Abingdon and both way more overcrowded than any "move them to Drew" fix would allow. Drew is hemmed in by 395 and Randolph (whose boundaries can't be moved because of walk zone/bussing issues). It's more complicated than just "move these people here". Also, please don't forget that the entire county owes Green Valley a debt for the way the neighborhood has been treated historically. So take a few deeps breaths before your go on and on about how "unfair" this is to a community of people that have enormous resources. It is rare the richest, whitest community members are actually treated unfairly in any sort of broader historical context.

Nottingham is surrounded by schools WITH capacity to take the students easily, right? Closing Nottingham does not push any other school over capacity nearby, right?

I am a SA parent, was on SAWG. And no, Abingdon and Oakridge are not more crowded than there is space in Drew. There are hundreds of empty seats at Drew. Hundreds. Moving kids from adjacent schools, which just so happen to be Hoffman Boston, Oakridge, and Abingdon, not only makes sense geographically, but also just so happens to solve the crowding problem at those two schools for now. I realize you don’t like this, but it’s going to happen. The projected seat deficit is under 300 seats, and there are 300 available seats at just that one school. This gets us to 2028. We will need another school, but not just yet.

Agreed. (Another SAWG member here). Problem is the socioeconomic demographics. APS was right in its initial proposal to try to minimize the FRL rate at drew. Community pushback made them acquiesce and increase the FRL%. Same thing will happen again, only APS won't bother trying to create reasonable FRL rates.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

Obviously if Nottingham's numbers increased to the extent that APS needed the seats up there, APS will reopen it. What WON'T happen, probably, is that if 22207 keeps going private and its numbers stay down, the school will stay as a swing space, or whatever. Maybe a community center! And if your kids can still have a walkable, great, nearby school but just a teeny bit further away, and the county doesn't have to waste money paying staff for serving a fraction of the population that other schools are serving -- that's a win for the county if not for you personally.

You all weren't very concerned when McKinley was the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" -- in fact you pointed the missile at them to save yourselves from the option school fate. I don't think the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" argument should hold any water. You're not going to find any parents in Arlington who are like, "oh yeah, let's totally burn this school down to the ground." People love their schools. But if your school is underutilized as yours is -- and as Nottingham parents have contributed to making it so -- don't try to float your special love for your school as some reason it should stay open when it's needed by APS. If Nottingham parents REALLY love their school so much, they should put their kids where their mouths are and come back from private. Otherwise, learn to deal with reality maybe.

The fact that the most wealthy portion of the population is going private will have a long term impact on the school district negatively. Mark my words. It’s a historic change in APS and one the school system just wants to ignore, saying who needs those people. Public schools need them long term.

This. Over the long term do you want to look like ACPS?

How do you propose to get them back exactly? And it’s not really “getting them back.” Demographics have changed. Wealthier families skew private, even in areas with “good” schools. The wealthier the population, the more who will be in private. Unless you can turn back time and make Arlington more affordable, I don’t know what you have in mind.

I don’t know, but closing the neighborhood school, having 25+ kids crammed into each Kindergarten class helmed by a long-term sub instead of a properly licensed and hired teacher, and having more 3-4 day weeks than full 5 day weeks with no option for aftercare isn’t going to do it. APS is pretty much begging every family that has the ability to take their kids and bail out.

Wealthy people don’t need vouchers, but every “lower UMC” family is going to feel a real pinch from private school tuition. Every single one of those families now becomes susceptible to a Youngkin voucher push. Democrats in other places have supported vouchers when they felt the schools were no longer serving them well - we are not immune to that here.

Well, K classes are supposed to be capped at 23. As for hiring teachers, do you think they’re not trying? What might’ve happened in the recent past that has made that harder? I hear you on the 3-4 day weeks. It’s stupid, and a real inconvenience for families, especially considering how [b]few actual students we have celebrating some of these observed holidays. [b]But, I guess that’s part of being in a pluralistic society. It’s not like we’re an outlier. Most neighboring districts have already or are going to observe the same holidays. If this is what drives you out, I think you were looking for reasons.

This is part of the problem - pretending that secular schools should be recognizing, or god forbid, celebrating - religious holidays when there is no operational reason to do so. FCCPS is not doing this. Fairfax may, but they also have the absence data to back it up. What does Arlington have? Conversations with religious leaders. It’s only a matter of time before someone brings a First Amendment suit. Seems like something Jason Miyares might get involved in just to stick it to us. It would be so cheap to make the case for real, but APS is lazy lazy lazy and relies on “social justice” and privilege shaming to do the work for them. A laziness I see has extended to this process.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

Obviously if Nottingham's numbers increased to the extent that APS needed the seats up there, APS will reopen it. What WON'T happen, probably, is that if 22207 keeps going private and its numbers stay down, the school will stay as a swing space, or whatever. Maybe a community center! And if your kids can still have a walkable, great, nearby school but just a teeny bit further away, and the county doesn't have to waste money paying staff for serving a fraction of the population that other schools are serving -- that's a win for the county if not for you personally.

You all weren't very concerned when McKinley was the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" -- in fact you pointed the missile at them to save yourselves from the option school fate. I don't think the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" argument should hold any water. You're not going to find any parents in Arlington who are like, "oh yeah, let's totally burn this school down to the ground." People love their schools. But if your school is underutilized as yours is -- and as Nottingham parents have contributed to making it so -- don't try to float your special love for your school as some reason it should stay open when it's needed by APS. If Nottingham parents REALLY love their school so much, they should put their kids where their mouths are and come back from private. Otherwise, learn to deal with reality maybe.

The fact that the most wealthy portion of the population is going private will have a long term impact on the school district negatively. Mark my words. It’s a historic change in APS and one the school system just wants to ignore, saying who needs those people. Public schools need them long term.

This. Over the long term do you want to look like ACPS?

How do you propose to get them back exactly? And it’s not really “getting them back.” Demographics have changed. Wealthier families skew private, even in areas with “good” schools. The wealthier the population, the more who will be in private. Unless you can turn back time and make Arlington more affordable, I don’t know what you have in mind.

I don’t know, but closing the neighborhood school, having 25+ kids crammed into each Kindergarten class helmed by a long-term sub instead of a properly licensed and hired teacher, and having more 3-4 day weeks than full 5 day weeks with no option for aftercare isn’t going to do it. APS is pretty much begging every family that has the ability to take their kids and bail out.

Wealthy people don’t need vouchers, but every “lower UMC” family is going to feel a real pinch from private school tuition. Every single one of those families now becomes susceptible to a Youngkin voucher push. Democrats in other places have supported vouchers when they felt the schools were no longer serving them well - we are not immune to that here.

Well, K classes are supposed to be capped at 23. As for hiring teachers, do you think they’re not trying? What might’ve happened in the recent past that has made that harder? I hear you on the 3-4 day weeks. It’s stupid, and a real inconvenience for families, especially considering how few actual students we have celebrating some of these observed holidays. But, I guess that’s part of being in a pluralistic society. It’s not like we’re an outlier. Most neighboring districts have already or are going to observe the same holidays. If this is what drives you out, I think you were looking for reasons.

What will make hiring teachers harder at Nottingham? Are you for real? How is a school that is about to close supposed to attract teachers? Who wants to work at a place with zero job security?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Fairlington community center is actually really well-used.

I’m sure it is, but it’s also the best hope of reducing overcrowding south of 50. The fact that SA doesn’t want to make that choice doesn’t mean other school zones should be made to suffer in “solidarity.” Especially when these zones have done a fair bit of suffering in recent years and continue to remain very popular with families with school-aged children.

You act as if this is on the table. It’s not, never has been. APS doesn’t own Fairlington and the County isn’t going to offer up a highly utilized Community Center. They won’t even offer up the underutilized ones. What are you even talking about? Also, this isn’t where they need a school in SA. Abingdon is around the corner. It would be another stupid move to create two schools with overlapping wall zones.

Yeah this isn't a realistic plan. What is a realistic plan is to use the MPSA building that they are vacating, conveniently in 2026 just in time to turn it into a swing-space. Centrally located and already a school! And empty too! On a major road that can handle buses!

Or just use the retrofitted Career Center and leave MPSA in place.
That would be far less expensive.

MPSA is already set to vacate that building though. The question now is what happens after they vacate.

So let me get this straight. APS is literally tearing down an Elementary School where they need one?

Yes.

No it’s not. And if they would just redraw the Drew boundaries to actually fill the school, SA probably will be okay until we can build another new school, which is really needed in the Pentagon City area. That was always where the next new ES was going to be sited, ever since the SAWG.

Why won’t they? How can they leave a school so under capacity when others near it are overcrowded?

This is a rhetorical Q. I know why actually. I remember how bitterly parents fought rezoning to Drew. For all you in SA rushing to judgment to close Nottingham, maybe look in your own backyard. How is is a waste of resources to keep Nottingham open but ok to keep Drew underutilized?

I'm confident you all up in the north would have happily redistricted your kids to fill a "Drew" in your area. You all can't bring yourselves to redistrict to an equally high performing, high economic status school; but you're faulting SA parents for not wanting to leave their high performing, more economically diverse, even award-winning schools to go to not just the lowest-performing Arlington school but a very low performing school?

I don't remember any Nottingham parents being opposed to being moved to Discovery when it first opened, even thought it was new school with no track record, all new teachers, new admins, etc. It was very needed as the situation at N'ham then was untenable. People got that.

What I see people opposing now is a plan that makes no sense. Closing one school to move kids to an overcrowded school tends not to be popular. And for good reason. I doubt you'd be for it if your kids were involved.

You parents in Abingdon wouldn't even agree to move your kids from an overcrowded school to a nearby undercrowded one so you have zero credibility.

I'm not an Abindgon parent. But you're still missing or avoiding my point that NES was going to equally performing school rather than to a "Drew." If it had been an underperforming school like Drew, they absolutely would have put up a fight...and yes they fought any change, so don't try to sell us on "oh we'll gladly go to Discovery and we're so happy, anything for the greater good"

APS tried to balance the FRL rate at Drew but parents wouldn't have it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Fairlington community center is actually really well-used.

I’m sure it is, but it’s also the best hope of reducing overcrowding south of 50. The fact that SA doesn’t want to make that choice doesn’t mean other school zones should be made to suffer in “solidarity.” Especially when these zones have done a fair bit of suffering in recent years and continue to remain very popular with families with school-aged children.

You act as if this is on the table. It’s not, never has been. APS doesn’t own Fairlington and the County isn’t going to offer up a highly utilized Community Center. They won’t even offer up the underutilized ones. What are you even talking about? Also, this isn’t where they need a school in SA. Abingdon is around the corner. It would be another stupid move to create two schools with overlapping wall zones.

Yeah this isn't a realistic plan. What is a realistic plan is to use the MPSA building that they are vacating, conveniently in 2026 just in time to turn it into a swing-space. Centrally located and already a school! And empty too! On a major road that can handle buses!

Or just use the retrofitted Career Center and leave MPSA in place.
That would be far less expensive.

MPSA is already set to vacate that building though. The question now is what happens after they vacate.

So let me get this straight. APS is literally tearing down an Elementary School where they need one?

Yes.

No it’s not. And if they would just redraw the Drew boundaries to actually fill the school, SA probably will be okay until we can build another new school, which is really needed in the Pentagon City area. That was always where the next new ES was going to be sited, ever since the SAWG.

Why won’t they? How can they leave a school so under capacity when others near it are overcrowded?

This is a rhetorical Q. I know why actually. I remember how bitterly parents fought rezoning to Drew. For all you in SA rushing to judgment to close Nottingham, maybe look in your own backyard. How is is a waste of resources to keep Nottingham open but ok to keep Drew underutilized?

I'm confident you all up in the north would have happily redistricted your kids to fill a "Drew" in your area. You all can't bring yourselves to redistrict to an equally high performing, high economic status school; but you're faulting SA parents for not wanting to leave their high performing, more economically diverse, even award-winning schools to go to not just the lowest-performing Arlington school but a very low performing school?

I don't remember any Nottingham parents being opposed to being moved to Discovery when it first opened, even thought it was new school with no track record, all new teachers, new admins, etc. It was very needed as the situation at N'ham then was untenable. People got that.

What I see people opposing now is a plan that makes no sense. Closing one school to move kids to an overcrowded school tends not to be popular. And for good reason. I doubt you'd be for it if your kids were involved.

You parents in Abingdon wouldn't even agree to move your kids from an overcrowded school to a nearby undercrowded one so you have zero credibility.

You realize there are safety issues surrounding Drew — like neighborhood shootings — that are quite different, right?

And you’re suggesting a move from Nottingham to Discovery is the same. 😂

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:+1

We live in a small very old house in 22207 while others with same income live in Green Valley in a McMansion new build.

Then they call us the privileged ones.

You are free to sell your small old house in 22207 and buy a new mansion in 22204 any time you'd like. Oh. What's that you say? You don't want the schools here? They're not good? Or not good enough? Not as good as up there? The education you're providing your kids is far superior and you were able to access that because you CHOSE to buy a small very old house in 22207 surrounded by school communities with great wealth and resources?

So what's your definition of "privileged," exactly? House size?

I'm good with our choice, thanks, I'm not good with rich white S Arlingtonians who live in McMansions calling me privileged with zero self awareness. Also not good when you use the race and social justice card but it's plainly only to benefit your well off privileged white children.

The amount of wealth in NA vs SA is incredibly obvious, even if you don’t want to admit it. How many CAFs have been built in your neck of the woods?

There’s a lot of privilege in NA, regardless of how large your home is. (And many downsides to living in SA, even if you can afford a larger home.)

I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

We live in a small very old house in 22207 while others with same income live in Green Valley in a McMansion new build.

Then they call us the privileged ones.

You are free to sell your small old house in 22207 and buy a new mansion in 22204 any time you'd like. Oh. What's that you say? You don't want the schools here? They're not good? Or not good enough? Not as good as up there? The education you're providing your kids is far superior and you were able to access that because you CHOSE to buy a small very old house in 22207 surrounded by school communities with great wealth and resources?

So what's your definition of "privileged," exactly? House size?

I'm good with our choice, thanks, I'm not good with rich white S Arlingtonians who live in McMansions calling me privileged with zero self awareness. Also not good when you use the race and social justice card but it's plainly only to benefit your well off privileged white children.

The amount of wealth in NA vs SA is incredibly obvious, even if you don’t want to admit it. How many CAFs have been built in your neck of the woods?

There’s a lot of privilege in NA, regardless of how large your home is. (And many downsides to living in SA, even if you can afford a larger home.)

I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA.

Time to let it go, SA poster. Living anywhere in Arlington has its advantages and disadvantages. There are many CAFs along the Rosslyn/Ballston corridor, and more in Westover than Arlington Ridge. Vibrancy and walkability comes at a cost. Buying for the schools also comes at a cost.

You are not less privileged, you are not more virtuous, simply because you made different choices with the same income. More tedious, perhaps. Less self-aware, definitely. But not better. It’s time to grapple with that and let it go.

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Anonymous wrote:Nottingham Petition addressed to Don Beyer. 2018. As advertised. Change.org. Still makes me giggle. Love you, Notties.

I didn’t sign this petition, wasn’t even in APS at the time, yet it’s my kid that’s going to have to school in an overcrowded Tuckahoe. I’m not a Buddhist and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I’m don’t think that “karma” as a religious concept applies to me here.

Perhaps when APS staff is meeting with Buddhist religious leaders to decide what days we need to take off, they can ask them if they should make school planning decisions based on “karma”. Or what’s the other one? Ah yes, the sh*t sandwich.

If I’m Tuckahoe, I’m very cautious about letting Nottingham work me up about a potential for mild overcrowding. It’s not clear what those numbers will be and 113 is NOT worrisome overcrowding. Buying into the Nottingham drama to block this is not your best move for a positive outcome for Tuckahoe. Work with APS staff instead.

I think pretty clearly you’re not Tuckahoe. And maybe have not experienced severe overcrowding. Tuckahoe has. Nottingham has. I would not endorse a plan that overcrowds my school by 113% on day one. What happens year two? Year three?

Meanwhile, SA schools are overcrowded year after year. Maybe it’s NA’s turn to take one for the team so some of these old buildings can be renovated.

Don't try to turn this into a North vs South thing. We lived through ridiculous overcrowding in North Arlington and the Southies didn't care. People tend not to care about things that don't impact them directly.

SA schools are more overcrowded than those in NA. It’s a fact.

So, yeah. Sorry if we don’t care.

You don’t care. I can’t imagine you speak for the entirety of south arlington.

DP in south Arlington. We don’t care. This is a sensible plan with long-term benefits for the entire county, and there’s a small faction that’s whining about it.

Let's just for a moment imagine the optics if APS wanted to shutter a much beloved neighborhood elementary school in South Arlington in order to provide a swing space for North Arlington children to use while their own schools are being renovated. Can you even imagine the outcry?

In stark contrast, APS went out of its way to keep Drew, an underutilized elementary school in South Arlington, open as a neighborhood school.

It was kept open as a neighborhood school in an area that could help alleviate overcrowding at other SA schools. It wasn't unneeded. Cant' say the same for your much beloved neighborhood elementary school in NE right now. APS didn't purposely set out to close a NA school to serve SA. They noted several underutilized NA schools all in proximity to each other and saw an opportunity that could help them better serve several schools by facilitating multiple much-needed renovations. AND they will return it to a neighborhood school again when it is needed.

Everyone keeps using this APS talking point. It will never happen, at least for a generation of students - you don't just flip a switch and start up a new elementary school. Once it is closed, it is closed.

Obviously if Nottingham's numbers increased to the extent that APS needed the seats up there, APS will reopen it. What WON'T happen, probably, is that if 22207 keeps going private and its numbers stay down, the school will stay as a swing space, or whatever. Maybe a community center! And if your kids can still have a walkable, great, nearby school but just a teeny bit further away, and the county doesn't have to waste money paying staff for serving a fraction of the population that other schools are serving -- that's a win for the county if not for you personally.

You all weren't very concerned when McKinley was the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" -- in fact you pointed the missile at them to save yourselves from the option school fate. I don't think the "much beloved neighborhood elementary school" argument should hold any water. You're not going to find any parents in Arlington who are like, "oh yeah, let's totally burn this school down to the ground." People love their schools. But if your school is underutilized as yours is -- and as Nottingham parents have contributed to making it so -- don't try to float your special love for your school as some reason it should stay open when it's needed by APS. If Nottingham parents REALLY love their school so much, they should put their kids where their mouths are and come back from private. Otherwise, learn to deal with reality maybe.

I’m a Nottingham parent and agree completely that Nottingham shouldn’t be saved because the neighborhood loves the school. There’s plenty of actual reasons rooted in quantifiable reality for why it shouldn’t be closed.

And here we go again with McKinley this, McKinley that. That ship sailed a long time ago.

You know how far apart McKinley is from Nottingham? 1.4 miles. You really think the number of kids going to private amongst the two schools is that significantly different? You really think the attitudes of parents really change that much in that distance? Langston Blvd isn’t some magical dividing line between two vastly different cultures. You are us. We are you. We go to Italian Store and Tobys just like you. We live amongst each other. Go to the same houses of worship. Shop at the same supermarkets. Shocking, I know.

And yet, somehow, McKinley has this huge chip on their shoulder about how horrible everyone at Nottingham is. Give it a rest.

Well some of us have PTSD from that principal of Nots. Nottingham is also 1.0. miles from discovery. It's not about McK. It's about rick ppl being jerks, going private, emptying the school, APS reacts, Nots want their school and now it's swing space.Poorly placed, sure, but swing space all the same.

Ok if you don't like our principal then what does that have to do with your attacks on the parents at Nottingham? It's not like we like her either. And sure some people went private but they aren't the ones impacted by this. We are.

You made my day. I'll bow out now. Good luck to you, SALA, and APS. They can't project a cat chasing a rat.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:+1

We live in a small very old house in 22207 while others with same income live in Green Valley in a McMansion new build.

Then they call us the privileged ones.

You are free to sell your small old house in 22207 and buy a new mansion in 22204 any time you'd like. Oh. What's that you say? You don't want the schools here? They're not good? Or not good enough? Not as good as up there? The education you're providing your kids is far superior and you were able to access that because you CHOSE to buy a small very old house in 22207 surrounded by school communities with great wealth and resources?

So what's your definition of "privileged," exactly? House size?

I'm good with our choice, thanks, I'm not good with rich white S Arlingtonians who live in McMansions calling me privileged with zero self awareness. Also not good when you use the race and social justice card but it's plainly only to benefit your well off privileged white children.

The amount of wealth in NA vs SA is incredibly obvious, even if you don’t want to admit it. How many CAFs have been built in your neck of the woods?

There’s a lot of privilege in NA, regardless of how large your home is. (And many downsides to living in SA, even if you can afford a larger home.)

I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA.

Time to let it go, SA poster. Living anywhere in Arlington has its advantages and disadvantages. There are many CAFs along the Rosslyn/Ballston corridor, and more in Westover than Arlington Ridge. Vibrancy and walkability comes at a cost. Buying for the schools also comes at a cost.

You are not less privileged, you are not more virtuous, simply because you made different choices with the same income. More tedious, perhaps. Less self-aware, definitely. But not better. It’s time to grapple with that and let it go.

Hear hear. "I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA." Thank you for saying your actual motivations out loud--this isn't about the kids, it's about burning it all down for the chaos?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1

We live in a small very old house in 22207 while others with same income live in Green Valley in a McMansion new build.

Then they call us the privileged ones.

You are free to sell your small old house in 22207 and buy a new mansion in 22204 any time you'd like. Oh. What's that you say? You don't want the schools here? They're not good? Or not good enough? Not as good as up there? The education you're providing your kids is far superior and you were able to access that because you CHOSE to buy a small very old house in 22207 surrounded by school communities with great wealth and resources?

So what's your definition of "privileged," exactly? House size?

I'm good with our choice, thanks, I'm not good with rich white S Arlingtonians who live in McMansions calling me privileged with zero self awareness. Also not good when you use the race and social justice card but it's plainly only to benefit your well off privileged white children.

The amount of wealth in NA vs SA is incredibly obvious, even if you don’t want to admit it. How many CAFs have been built in your neck of the woods?

There’s a lot of privilege in NA, regardless of how large your home is. (And many downsides to living in SA, even if you can afford a larger home.)

I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA.

Time to let it go, SA poster. Living anywhere in Arlington has its advantages and disadvantages. There are many CAFs along the Rosslyn/Ballston corridor, and more in Westover than Arlington Ridge. Vibrancy and walkability comes at a cost. Buying for the schools also comes at a cost.

You are not less privileged, you are not more virtuous, simply because you made different choices with the same income. More tedious, perhaps. Less self-aware, definitely. But not better. It’s time to grapple with that and let it go.

Hear hear. "I’m happy to let the NA schools become just as overcrowded as those in SA." Thank you for saying your actual motivations out loud--this isn't about the kids, it's about burning it all down for the chaos?

I like how there are many SA posters arguing with one deranged NES mom.