Physicians Assistant yelling “HELP ME” while stealing a CitiBike ?

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.


DP. Good for you. And, I mean that sincerely.
At the same time, you are ignoring all the progressives on twitter and other social media who have outright called her a Karen and said even worse about her.
Anonymous
If anyone knows someone on her legal team, this is an account I haven't seen mentioned on here that is also posting the video, doxxed info, and incorrect info about the video:

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


This happened off hospital property, so it makes no sense its impacting her employment.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.


DP. Good for you. And, I mean that sincerely.
At the same time, you are ignoring all the progressives on twitter and other social media who have outright called her a Karen and said even worse about her.


Way to generalize from a few loud voices to all progressives. I’m sure you’d be outraged if someone generalized about conservatives.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


This happened off hospital property, so it makes no sense its impacting her employment.


Well currently it is preventing her from going to work, even if she were not on leave, because she has been doxxed and everyone knows where she works, and she has received threats. So right now it's not safe for her to go to work, which is obviously impacting her employment.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


This happened off hospital property, so it makes no sense its impacting her employment.


Well in todays Progressive Controlled media circus I'm sure the hospital is just canceling her so they can't be fire bombed by the left. Makes total sense to todays mental illness known as liberals.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.


I’m not ignoring it. I just don’t care what a few anonymous posters on DCUM say when non-anonymous progressives with large platforms use the term freely and gleefully. The progressive movement as a whole has embraced “Karen” and it simply doesn’t matter that one or two anonymous posters on DCUM say they are progressives and also don’t like the term.

Why are you so afraid to acknowledge the misogyny of the progressive left? Why can’t you admit that the term Karen was and is embraced widely by the progressive left, that it was and is used by prominent political progressives? Why can’t you face reality? Why can’t you admit the misogyny of the progressive movement is widespread?

Karen is a term of the progressive left and the incel right. It isn’t used by right-wing political figures very much, but it’s frequently used by left-wing political figures and in incel circles. We all know this, and there is plenty of video and online text showing the same. If you were honest, if your progressive beliefs weren’t a religious identity for you, you’d be willing to talk about that misogynist reality. But you aren’t, because that means facing a fault in your religion.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike in first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.


DP. Good for you. And, I mean that sincerely.
At the same time, you are ignoring all the progressives on twitter and other social media who have outright called her a Karen and said even worse about her.


Way to generalize from a few loud voices to all progressives. I’m sure you’d be outraged if someone generalized about conservatives.


When progressive leaders use the term “Karen,” are we not supposed to see them as leaders of the progressive left?

And I am quite willing to say there is a ton of misogyny amongst conservatives so that doesn’t fly with me. I’m not a conservative, in any event.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


This happened off hospital property, so it makes no sense its impacting her employment.


The woman's primary concern when she first hired the lawyer was her employment because of the statement her employer put out, and clearly the conversation she had with them that led to her going on leave, and the planned investigation by her employer was of such a nature that she felt she needed to hire an employment lawyer. That concern soon paled in comparison to the shitstorm that followed and the death threats but her lawyer says they are still awaiting the findings of the investigation by the employer.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


I am glad it appears her name will be cleared, and sad that she has to go though it, pregnant, no less!
So why did the young men want her off the bike? They wanted to rent that particular bike that was already paid for by her? Seems like there were other bikes around?
Were they just looking for an altercation they could then put online?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I see we're back to discussing who rented the bike first.

I'd just like to point out that it is not possible to be confused about this point. The bike is locked in the dock until it is rented. To rent it you must scan the QR code with your phone. So while their could be a misunderstanding about who was at the bike first, there could not be a misunderstanding about who rented it first. If the bike was unlocked when you got there, the other person already rented it, the end.

This idea that you can reserve a bike is simply false. You can't reserve a CitiBike in advance.


The misogynist PP peddling that flatly absurd theory knows it is wrong, but pushing irrational and easily disproved theories is easier for her than acknowledging her misogyny.


I honestly don’t even think it’s misogyny anymore. It’s the rabid psychosis of a progressive that can’t come to terms with the fact that she’s completely and verifiably wrong.



Keep progressives out of it. It's misogyny and racism, period.


But the misogyny and racism that is on evident display here is promulgated by progressives. That’s why we are here: because of the progressive embrace of misogyny.

It’s time to have a frank and open discussion about how the progressive left has monetized and used misogyny to rise to power in the Democratic Party. That conversation is long overdue.


No. Misogyny and a different racism are promulgated by conservatives, too. Incels invented the word "Karen" on Reddit.

This isn't about politics. It's about being a straight-up racist and misogynist.


You’re ignoring what is right in front of you, probably because you can’t face your own embrace of misogyny. The term Karen is gleefully and enthusiastically used by the progressive left. It’s frequent, it’s casual, and it’s spoken without care. The fact that it originated in deeply misogynist circles on Reddit should have meant that all true progressives should have stood up and refused to use the term. Yet they did not. They did the opposite, in fact: they widely embraced the term. They made it popular, bringing it out of Reddit incel dungeons. Progressives made “Karen” mainstream, and we all know that.

Also, don’t derail the conversation by focusing on conservatives. Nobody is debating the misogyny of conservatives. THIS attack — and let’s call this was it is — on a pregnant PA who has been forced to flee her own house for her safety happened because of the misogyny of the progressive left. The online mob was prepared to accept the narrative of the Karen, slavered for it, in fact, despite the fact that any reasonable person should have watched that video and said “hold up.” There’s a pregnant woman out there forced out of her home because of progressive misogyny.

You don’t get to pretend this isn’t real. You don’t get to hide from the truth. People see the ugliness of misogyny in the progressive movement, and that sunlight needs to keep shining on it.


You’re ignoring that multiple progressives in this thread, including me, have said they loathe the term Karen and all the racism, misogyny and ageism it entails.

We’re not going to let a conservative like you tell us what progressives like us believe, bruh.


DP. Good for you. And, I mean that sincerely.
At the same time, you are ignoring all the progressives on twitter and other social media who have outright called her a Karen and said even worse about her.


+1

That poster will never challenge progressives who use the term “Karen” publicly. Accepting “Karen” is required for public progressive identity now. Anonymous on DCUM? Sure, she will say she doesn’t like “Karen” in that context. But she’d never do it in a public context, because she knows what her fellow progressives will do to her.
Anonymous
Can someone explain to me why a group of 4 or 5 men were interested to ride only ONE bike? Or were they looking to rent 5 different bikes? Or is it just one guy who needs a bike to ride but others just walk home/take a taxi?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is the video linked on page 1 deleted form Twitter?


Her lawyer has said they are going after media sources that fanned the flames and led to the witchhunt of her and her family. Many accounts likely want nothing to tie them to the video.

Her lawyer also said this was a misunderstanding about the bikes and the woman holds no ill will at all towards the young men (and he emphasized the word young).

The lawyer said he and her legal team have 3 goals

1) clear her name
2) ensure her employer exonerates her and there are no employment related effects
3) go after media who made this a disaster (his word)

The woman is currently in hiding with her family due to the death threats and doxxing that took place.


This happened off hospital property, so it makes no sense its impacting her employment.


The woman's primary concern when she first hired the lawyer was her employment because of the statement her employer put out, and clearly the conversation she had with them that led to her going on leave, and the planned investigation by her employer was of such a nature that she felt she needed to hire an employment lawyer. That concern soon paled in comparison to the shitstorm that followed and the death threats but her lawyer says they are still awaiting the findings of the investigation by the employer.


She was absolutely right to hire a lawyer. Not questioning that. Questioning why her employer is involved at all.
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