MCPS Boundary Study Meeting Tonight (12/11) at Julius West @ 7pm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But that doesn’t mean they need a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity.

I’m all for switching boundaries for utilization.

Good news! There are no plans for "a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity." None. No plans. NO. PLANS.

If no plan to address more than utilization, opening up the space of under-capacity schools to out-of-boundary students can be done very easily and cheaply. the majority don't against that. Bottom line, there were never strong objections to where BOE decided to locate special programs to attract more voluntary long bus ride. Tax-payers should be given a choice if they prefer proximity over diversity.

I disagree. If that were true, people wouldn't already be in a total tizzy about the possibility of being reassigned to Crown HS - a high school that doesn't even exist yet.

It's totally different things to be reassigned to a different school vs. to be allowed to attend a different school when space is available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But that doesn’t mean they need a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity.

I’m all for switching boundaries for utilization.

Good news! There are no plans for "a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity." None. No plans. NO. PLANS.

If no plan to address more than utilization, opening up the space of under-capacity schools to out-of-boundary students can be done very easily and cheaply. the majority don't against that. Bottom line, there were never strong objections to where BOE decided to locate special programs to attract more voluntary long bus ride. Tax-payers should be given a choice if they prefer proximity over diversity.

I disagree. If that were true, people wouldn't already be in a total tizzy about the possibility of being reassigned to Crown HS - a high school that doesn't even exist yet.

It's totally different things to be reassigned to a different school vs. to be allowed to attend a different school when space is available.

A plan to address overcrowding by allowing people at overcrowded schools to attend undercrowded schools is a plan that doesn't effectively address overcrowding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not understand why this is so difficult for people.

-White and Asian kids do just as well academically regardless of the SES or racial demo of a school. If anything, being in a higher FARMs demo would make it easier for them to get into elite schools.

-Studies show White kids in particular actually benefit the most from being in SES and racially diverse schools. Go figure. Most white kids in America go to deeply segregated schools that does not reflect the world they will deal with when they become an adult.

-Residents are entitled to free public school, but they are not entitled to a particular school. If parents have a problem with this, they can do like the rest of white americans and can isolate their kids in a private school.

-You are free to pay for specialized enrichment activities for your child on your own dime.

Don't let your fear of brown and black people and your perception of their respective "cultures" blind you from basic facts.

My UMC kids are at two different DCC high schools. I would send them again, no regrets, but please do share these studies that show "white" students benefit from schools with racial and SES diversity. To my knowledge there are no good studies that show this. What are they measuring? School performance? I think there are benefits, but they are not things easily quantifiable.

Well they certainly aren't hurt by it. So all this fuss about mixing with black and brown kids has much less to do with academic performance and more to do with unsubstantiated "beliefs". It would be nice to see studies proving why we should *not* work to integrate both racially and SES.


White students’ test scores don’t drop when they go to schools with large numbers of black and Latino students.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

This subject has little to do with "evidence." I think people will always find a reason as to why we shouldn't seek to find income class and racial balance in schools. The "inconvenience" of busing or not going to the closet school. Concerns regarding peer groups and lack of enrichment activities or advanced classes. If you need a reason, you will find one.

What would be refreshing is if folks were honest. The concern here for those opposed to what MCPS is attempting to do is regarding of the "culture" of lower income black and brown communities. I don't say this to label anyone who holds these concerns are racist. If you have an honest conversation with black and brown families from higher incomes, they will likely hold similar concerns. My only request is that you vigorously challenge them.

How does it really hurt your child to have a greater mix of kids from different incomes and ethnic backgrounds? Is there evidence that shows it leads to negative outcomes? Does it hurt their chances into getting to their college of choice?

It does lead to negative academic outcomes if the educational standard has to be lowered to accommodate majority of the students in the classroom. It's hard to believe that a richer social experience will lead to better understanding in English or math. I have many colleagues from Europe or Asia countries who grew up in non-diverse environment, whom I don't feel any less open-minded than others. Many have quite impressive subject matter knowledge. Also, Maryland Report Card has student performance statistics for every school. The data don't support that greater diversity leads to greater academic outcome even excluding FARM students.

Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But that doesn’t mean they need a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity.

I’m all for switching boundaries for utilization.

Good news! There are no plans for "a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity." None. No plans. NO. PLANS.

If no plan to address more than utilization, opening up the space of under-capacity schools to out-of-boundary students can be done very easily and cheaply. the majority don't against that. Bottom line, there were never strong objections to where BOE decided to locate special programs to attract more voluntary long bus ride. Tax-payers should be given a choice if they prefer proximity over diversity.

I disagree. If that were true, people wouldn't already be in a total tizzy about the possibility of being reassigned to Crown HS - a high school that doesn't even exist yet.

It's totally different things to be reassigned to a different school vs. to be allowed to attend a different school when space is available.

A plan to address overcrowding by allowing people at overcrowded schools to attend undercrowded schools is a plan that doesn't effectively address overcrowding.

Well, if everyone in the school prefer overcrowdiness to a different school, they should have that option.
They are not the problem of the utilization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

Maybe not as much, but I bet there'd be a lot. There's plenty of classism involved here too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But that doesn’t mean they need a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity.

I’m all for switching boundaries for utilization.

Good news! There are no plans for "a countywide redistricting based especially on diversity." None. No plans. NO. PLANS.

If no plan to address more than utilization, opening up the space of under-capacity schools to out-of-boundary students can be done very easily and cheaply. the majority don't against that. Bottom line, there were never strong objections to where BOE decided to locate special programs to attract more voluntary long bus ride. Tax-payers should be given a choice if they prefer proximity over diversity.

I disagree. If that were true, people wouldn't already be in a total tizzy about the possibility of being reassigned to Crown HS - a high school that doesn't even exist yet.

It's totally different things to be reassigned to a different school vs. to be allowed to attend a different school when space is available.

So....your plan is that they should open Crown and then just....see if folks choose to come? I thought people like you wanted "neighborhood schools." Crown HS will be the "neighborhood school" for the folks assigned to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not understand why this is so difficult for people.

-White and Asian kids do just as well academically regardless of the SES or racial demo of a school. If anything, being in a higher FARMs demo would make it easier for them to get into elite schools.

-Studies show White kids in particular actually benefit the most from being in SES and racially diverse schools. Go figure. Most white kids in America go to deeply segregated schools that does not reflect the world they will deal with when they become an adult.

-Residents are entitled to free public school, but they are not entitled to a particular school. If parents have a problem with this, they can do like the rest of white americans and can isolate their kids in a private school.

-You are free to pay for specialized enrichment activities for your child on your own dime.

Don't let your fear of brown and black people and your perception of their respective "cultures" blind you from basic facts.

My UMC kids are at two different DCC high schools. I would send them again, no regrets, but please do share these studies that show "white" students benefit from schools with racial and SES diversity. To my knowledge there are no good studies that show this. What are they measuring? School performance? I think there are benefits, but they are not things easily quantifiable.

Well they certainly aren't hurt by it. So all this fuss about mixing with black and brown kids has much less to do with academic performance and more to do with unsubstantiated "beliefs". It would be nice to see studies proving why we should *not* work to integrate both racially and SES.


White students’ test scores don’t drop when they go to schools with large numbers of black and Latino students.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

This subject has little to do with "evidence." I think people will always find a reason as to why we shouldn't seek to find income class and racial balance in schools. The "inconvenience" of busing or not going to the closet school. Concerns regarding peer groups and lack of enrichment activities or advanced classes. If you need a reason, you will find one.

What would be refreshing is if folks were honest. The concern here for those opposed to what MCPS is attempting to do is regarding of the "culture" of lower income black and brown communities. I don't say this to label anyone who holds these concerns are racist. If you have an honest conversation with black and brown families from higher incomes, they will likely hold similar concerns. My only request is that you vigorously challenge them.

How does it really hurt your child to have a greater mix of kids from different incomes and ethnic backgrounds? Is there evidence that shows it leads to negative outcomes? Does it hurt their chances into getting to their college of choice?

It does lead to negative academic outcomes if the educational standard has to be lowered to accommodate majority of the students in the classroom. It's hard to believe that a richer social experience will lead to better understanding in English or math. I have many colleagues from Europe or Asia countries who grew up in non-diverse environment, whom I don't feel any less open-minded than others. Many have quite impressive subject matter knowledge. Also, Maryland Report Card has student performance statistics for every school. The data don't support that greater diversity leads to greater academic outcome even excluding FARM students.

Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

I don't completely disagree with you. I remember vaguely someone showed studies in the past that 25% FARM rate is the tipping point for the diversity benefit to diminish. It's kind of true when I check the report card. FARM kids in schools of less than ~20-30% FARM rate indeel do statistically better than FARM kids in other schools. The non-FARM kids in high FARM rate school do significant worse than their peers in low-FARM rate schools. or Are you saying a white kid from a 15% FARM rate school will do equally well at a 90% FARM rate school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

Maybe not as much, but I bet there'd be a lot. There's plenty of classism involved here too.

Agreed. Classim+racism+xenophobia and you have the perfect mix for what we are seeing around the country in our largely segregated cities and counties.

Whats ironic is that the feeling, of not wanting to be forcibly integrated, in many ways is mutual for many low income black and brown communities. Do you think they want to send their kids to schools where they are not wanted. Do you think they don't feel that contempt? They don't need to sit next to white or asian kids in their classroom to achieve academic excellence.

All this work to create more balance is really to avoid doing rethinking how we approach education for lower income black and brown communities, which in addition to the challenge of income, are less shielded from the impacts of historical and structural racism. Models of success exist, but it requires courage. Solving this is a big ask for a public education system. But it is the public that created the situation, so it should be the public that works to fix it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not understand why this is so difficult for people.

-White and Asian kids do just as well academically regardless of the SES or racial demo of a school. If anything, being in a higher FARMs demo would make it easier for them to get into elite schools.

-Studies show White kids in particular actually benefit the most from being in SES and racially diverse schools. Go figure. Most white kids in America go to deeply segregated schools that does not reflect the world they will deal with when they become an adult.

-Residents are entitled to free public school, but they are not entitled to a particular school. If parents have a problem with this, they can do like the rest of white americans and can isolate their kids in a private school.

-You are free to pay for specialized enrichment activities for your child on your own dime.

Don't let your fear of brown and black people and your perception of their respective "cultures" blind you from basic facts.

My UMC kids are at two different DCC high schools. I would send them again, no regrets, but please do share these studies that show "white" students benefit from schools with racial and SES diversity. To my knowledge there are no good studies that show this. What are they measuring? School performance? I think there are benefits, but they are not things easily quantifiable.

Well they certainly aren't hurt by it. So all this fuss about mixing with black and brown kids has much less to do with academic performance and more to do with unsubstantiated "beliefs". It would be nice to see studies proving why we should *not* work to integrate both racially and SES.


White students’ test scores don’t drop when they go to schools with large numbers of black and Latino students.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

This subject has little to do with "evidence." I think people will always find a reason as to why we shouldn't seek to find income class and racial balance in schools. The "inconvenience" of busing or not going to the closet school. Concerns regarding peer groups and lack of enrichment activities or advanced classes. If you need a reason, you will find one.

What would be refreshing is if folks were honest. The concern here for those opposed to what MCPS is attempting to do is regarding of the "culture" of lower income black and brown communities. I don't say this to label anyone who holds these concerns are racist. If you have an honest conversation with black and brown families from higher incomes, they will likely hold similar concerns. My only request is that you vigorously challenge them.

How does it really hurt your child to have a greater mix of kids from different incomes and ethnic backgrounds? Is there evidence that shows it leads to negative outcomes? Does it hurt their chances into getting to their college of choice?

It does lead to negative academic outcomes if the educational standard has to be lowered to accommodate majority of the students in the classroom. It's hard to believe that a richer social experience will lead to better understanding in English or math. I have many colleagues from Europe or Asia countries who grew up in non-diverse environment, whom I don't feel any less open-minded than others. Many have quite impressive subject matter knowledge. Also, Maryland Report Card has student performance statistics for every school. The data don't support that greater diversity leads to greater academic outcome even excluding FARM students.

Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

I don't completely disagree with you. I remember vaguely someone showed studies in the past that 25% FARM rate is the tipping point for the diversity benefit to diminish. It's kind of true when I check the report card. FARM kids in schools of less than ~20-30% FARM rate indeel do statistically better than FARM kids in other schools. The non-FARM kids in high FARM rate school do significant worse than their peers in low-FARM rate schools. or Are you saying a white kid from a 15% FARM rate school will do equally well at a 90% FARM rate school?

The data shows the non-FARMs white kids in a 90% FARMs will do measurably as well as the non-FARMs white kid in a 10% FARMs. Yes, the data shows thats. If you want to debate if the success rate is 95% vs 88% then have it. Both are more than acceptable rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

Maybe not as much, but I bet there'd be a lot. There's plenty of classism involved here too.

Agreed. Classim+racism+xenophobia and you have the perfect mix for what we are seeing around the country in our largely segregated cities and counties.

Whats ironic is that the feeling, of not wanting to be forcibly integrated, in many ways is mutual for many low income black and brown communities. Do you think they want to send their kids to schools where they are not wanted. Do you think they don't feel that contempt? They don't need to sit next to white or asian kids in their classroom to achieve academic excellence.

All this work to create more balance is really to avoid doing rethinking how we approach education for lower income black and brown communities, which in addition to the challenge of income, are less shielded from the impacts of historical and structural racism. Models of success exist, but it requires courage. Solving this is a big ask for a public education system. But it is the public that created the situation, so it should be the public that works to fix it.

It should be noted that coming from a low income family, does not make someone less motivated or intelligent. The American education system is not a meritocracy in the least bit. The faster folks understand this, the better we will be as a society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

Maybe not as much, but I bet there'd be a lot. There's plenty of classism involved here too.

Classism and cohortism - our "lily white" ES that is frequently raised here is actually pretty racially diverse and parents discuss that as a selling point for the school. The push back I hear is concerns about peer groups and rigor. It is not a "dog whistle" for racism. It's about attending a school where significant numbers of students don't graduate and the academic standards are not as high, even when accessing the same curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not understand why this is so difficult for people.

-White and Asian kids do just as well academically regardless of the SES or racial demo of a school. If anything, being in a higher FARMs demo would make it easier for them to get into elite schools.

-Studies show White kids in particular actually benefit the most from being in SES and racially diverse schools. Go figure. Most white kids in America go to deeply segregated schools that does not reflect the world they will deal with when they become an adult.

-Residents are entitled to free public school, but they are not entitled to a particular school. If parents have a problem with this, they can do like the rest of white americans and can isolate their kids in a private school.

-You are free to pay for specialized enrichment activities for your child on your own dime.

Don't let your fear of brown and black people and your perception of their respective "cultures" blind you from basic facts.

My UMC kids are at two different DCC high schools. I would send them again, no regrets, but please do share these studies that show "white" students benefit from schools with racial and SES diversity. To my knowledge there are no good studies that show this. What are they measuring? School performance? I think there are benefits, but they are not things easily quantifiable.

Well they certainly aren't hurt by it. So all this fuss about mixing with black and brown kids has much less to do with academic performance and more to do with unsubstantiated "beliefs". It would be nice to see studies proving why we should *not* work to integrate both racially and SES.


White students’ test scores don’t drop when they go to schools with large numbers of black and Latino students.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

This subject has little to do with "evidence." I think people will always find a reason as to why we shouldn't seek to find income class and racial balance in schools. The "inconvenience" of busing or not going to the closet school. Concerns regarding peer groups and lack of enrichment activities or advanced classes. If you need a reason, you will find one.

What would be refreshing is if folks were honest. The concern here for those opposed to what MCPS is attempting to do is regarding of the "culture" of lower income black and brown communities. I don't say this to label anyone who holds these concerns are racist. If you have an honest conversation with black and brown families from higher incomes, they will likely hold similar concerns. My only request is that you vigorously challenge them.

How does it really hurt your child to have a greater mix of kids from different incomes and ethnic backgrounds? Is there evidence that shows it leads to negative outcomes? Does it hurt their chances into getting to their college of choice?

It does lead to negative academic outcomes if the educational standard has to be lowered to accommodate majority of the students in the classroom. It's hard to believe that a richer social experience will lead to better understanding in English or math. I have many colleagues from Europe or Asia countries who grew up in non-diverse environment, whom I don't feel any less open-minded than others. Many have quite impressive subject matter knowledge. Also, Maryland Report Card has student performance statistics for every school. The data don't support that greater diversity leads to greater academic outcome even excluding FARM students.

Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

I don't completely disagree with you. I remember vaguely someone showed studies in the past that 25% FARM rate is the tipping point for the diversity benefit to diminish. It's kind of true when I check the report card. FARM kids in schools of less than ~20-30% FARM rate indeel do statistically better than FARM kids in other schools. The non-FARM kids in high FARM rate school do significant worse than their peers in low-FARM rate schools. or Are you saying a white kid from a 15% FARM rate school will do equally well at a 90% FARM rate school?

The data shows the non-FARMs white kids in a 90% FARMs will do measurably as well as the non-FARMs white kid in a 10% FARMs. Yes, the data shows thats. If you want to debate if the success rate is 95% vs 88% then have it. Both are more than acceptable rates.

No, the data don't show that. You can verify by going on maryland report card, select a school and set the filter with non-FARM + RACE=WHITE. belief is one thing, but please don't distort the fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

Maybe not as much, but I bet there'd be a lot. There's plenty of classism involved here too.

Classism and cohortism - our "lily white" ES that is frequently raised here is actually pretty racially diverse and parents discuss that as a selling point for the school. The push back I hear is concerns about peer groups and rigor. It is not a "dog whistle" for racism. It's about attending a school where significant numbers of students don't graduate and the academic standards are not as high, even when accessing the same curriculum.

It's about attending a school with poor kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I do not understand why this is so difficult for people.

-White and Asian kids do just as well academically regardless of the SES or racial demo of a school. If anything, being in a higher FARMs demo would make it easier for them to get into elite schools.

-Studies show White kids in particular actually benefit the most from being in SES and racially diverse schools. Go figure. Most white kids in America go to deeply segregated schools that does not reflect the world they will deal with when they become an adult.

-Residents are entitled to free public school, but they are not entitled to a particular school. If parents have a problem with this, they can do like the rest of white americans and can isolate their kids in a private school.

-You are free to pay for specialized enrichment activities for your child on your own dime.

Don't let your fear of brown and black people and your perception of their respective "cultures" blind you from basic facts.

My UMC kids are at two different DCC high schools. I would send them again, no regrets, but please do share these studies that show "white" students benefit from schools with racial and SES diversity. To my knowledge there are no good studies that show this. What are they measuring? School performance? I think there are benefits, but they are not things easily quantifiable.

Well they certainly aren't hurt by it. So all this fuss about mixing with black and brown kids has much less to do with academic performance and more to do with unsubstantiated "beliefs". It would be nice to see studies proving why we should *not* work to integrate both racially and SES.


White students’ test scores don’t drop when they go to schools with large numbers of black and Latino students.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

This subject has little to do with "evidence." I think people will always find a reason as to why we shouldn't seek to find income class and racial balance in schools. The "inconvenience" of busing or not going to the closet school. Concerns regarding peer groups and lack of enrichment activities or advanced classes. If you need a reason, you will find one.

What would be refreshing is if folks were honest. The concern here for those opposed to what MCPS is attempting to do is regarding of the "culture" of lower income black and brown communities. I don't say this to label anyone who holds these concerns are racist. If you have an honest conversation with black and brown families from higher incomes, they will likely hold similar concerns. My only request is that you vigorously challenge them.

How does it really hurt your child to have a greater mix of kids from different incomes and ethnic backgrounds? Is there evidence that shows it leads to negative outcomes? Does it hurt their chances into getting to their college of choice?

It does lead to negative academic outcomes if the educational standard has to be lowered to accommodate majority of the students in the classroom. It's hard to believe that a richer social experience will lead to better understanding in English or math. I have many colleagues from Europe or Asia countries who grew up in non-diverse environment, whom I don't feel any less open-minded than others. Many have quite impressive subject matter knowledge. Also, Maryland Report Card has student performance statistics for every school. The data don't support that greater diversity leads to greater academic outcome even excluding FARM students.

Having lower income kids in a school does *not* equal "lower education standards" for all kids. Jesus Christ. And again, the data shows that white kids perform similarly in a poor school than if they were in a wealthy enclave school full of high achievers. Since this is true, why does it matter so much?

If you are concerned with social status stuff and increasing the possibility your kid will have a friend network similar to the wealthy elite, then guess what? That aint going to happen unless you go to elite private schools or hang with that crowd. And....those kids are *not* more academically motivated than anyone else. They are more connected. And if you are in *this* conversation, you aint part of the club.

The data does show that it helps when you include FARMs. Thats the discussion we are having. FARMs in this case and many urban areas = black and latino kids. We wouldn't be having this discussion of schools with high FARMs concentrations were meeting state standards. if the FARMs kids were mostly white, I would support the county in doing the same thing. Funny, though I highly doubt there would be as much push back from the community. Hypothetical of course.

In a 'wealthy enclave school full of high achievers' the curriculum is taught either faster, or more in depth, since said high achievers are able to learn the material quicker. So while white kids might still be 'performing' similarly (whatever that means, how do you measure performance, by grades? MAP scores? PARCC scores) their actual take away from the lessons is not the same as it would be in the class full of students who are on par with them academically.
Unless you introduce tracking. But that's also not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

So are they going to bus Whitman kids to Einstein?