Claiming a disability on the SAT/ACT - have people been gaming the system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

Some of us are doing what we do just to get our kids to and through college, its not just about elite schools.

Well that's the same thing. The difference in earning power between a kid who goes to college and one who doesn't is tremendous. If it was possible to make a living wage without a college degree, there would be a lot less pressure for all this maneuvering.

All the electricians and plumbers I know make more than $100k/year. One plumber I know drives a Porsche.

Interesting that on this thread, folks can sympathize with 'parents rationally try to do whatever they can' for their kid, whereas on the thread which is ostensibly about rising enrollment rates in Montgomery County public schools, people seem unable to understand that this is PRECISELY what motivates so many folks to immigrate here illegally. It's easier to sympathize with the rich than the needy and that's why we suck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If it makes anyone feel better, as a young millennial for who graduated college a few years ago when this started being a thing, most people who had accomendations aren’t succeeding very much professionally. As someone who graduated with a 3.1, I’m doing much better post-grad then those accomendations who earned a 3.7+.

I'm sure the people in your circle are representative of all people with disabilities.

I admit they are not, and I should have worded it as such. Mostly UMC/wealthy people who have borderline disabilities (went to one of LACs in the WSJ article).

Blame delayed parenthood. Parents who had children in their 30s and early 40s are more likely to have kids with learning issues.

-parent who had kid 1 at age 35

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

No. The test is not to test speed. The point is to see if somebody has learned enough in 17 years to attend a college.

why do you think the test is timed, then? it tests speed and knowledge.

Consider this. The kid who was really super fast at math facts in 3rd grade, may completely bomb Algebra I. The kid who thoroughly understood numbers but was slow to write or shout out the answers on math fact test, might be a math genius going beyond Calculus in high school. I have seen each. The second one didn't finish the math section on a high school entrance exam even though it was testing things he'd studied 3 years prior to where he was in math at the time. His school doesn't enter kids in math contests like suburban schools do, so on paper, other than looking at the class he is taking and his grade, you might not know you have a math wiz on your hands. With extra time on a standardized test, he'd not miss a question. Unfortunately there is no chance he'll fill the bubble in fast enough to do that timed. But he's really smart, so he's not getting any accommodations. That kid has to hope the school will move him past the SAT pre-cut so they get to the teacher recommendations that explain what he can do.

I don't get this attitude. Many, many very smart mathemeticians also work slowly. In fact they even joke about it. It sounds like you just can't stand that your kid doesn't excel in every single area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's hard to know how many are gaming the system because there is no uniform requirement for testing--at least not that I am aware. My DS did what is considered "the gold standard" a neuropych. test, full language test, and it included IQ and achievement testing. He was re-evaluated 2.5 years later, and will be re-evaluated again prior to high school.
We use accommodations that we feel are the least extreme- in his case, he tests in a less distracting environment. We don't use additional time because, while it would raise his writing scores (he has ADHD and a speech and language impairment), he's managed well without it.
Here is what happens OP (someone mentioned this earlier)-- exceptionally bright kids (mine has an IQ in the mid 140s) mask learning disabilities until high school- at that time, the volume and complexity of work exceeds their ability to compensate. What this means, is that many of these kids (mine included) can work at a higher level than 99% of the population if they are given more time. That is not the same as gaming the system. Everyone does better with more time but the kids with learning issues may jump massive percentage points with even a little more time.
Case in point, my DS's teacher accidentally gave him extra time on the language portion of his ERB a few years ago. His score went from the 7th stanine in independent schools to the 9th stanine, 99th percentile with just 15 or so extra minutes. While there are typical, smart kids who might raise their scores slightly or even by a lot, I will bet that you likely wouldn't see such a dramatic change in comprehension. That's how "real" learning issues work--my DS's scores in language abilities look above average on a standardized test without extended time- but they are not. He was reading Orwell in the 5th grade, winning word masters contests for his entire school, writing poetry, etc.

My kid’s score would jump to 800 on the math portion if he had extra time also. He just didn’t have time to go through all the questions and got a 760. He knew the material.

Congratulations. Please feel comforted that my DC was rejected from almost every school (and only one reach) with a 35 ACT and a lifetime of pretty cool achievements. I hope my child's failure to secure admissions makes you feel vindicated and superior.

Your kid applied to almost every school? There are thousands of colleges in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

That's not remotely close to how it works. Not even close enough for your point to make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

That's not remotely close to how it works. Not even close enough for your point to make sense.

It’s close enough. There are always kids with profiles that are impaired the same way your child is but not enough to trigger accommodations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you claim a processing speed disability does State Dept or CIA give additional time for their testsing (FSOT or brainbench)?

What about MCAT and LSAT, are kids getting extra time on those too? Why about boards and BAR exam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

it doesn't work that way... so it's stupid.

Listen lady, no kid with accommodations is taking your kids spot, just let it be.... ramps are not getting people in wheel chairs to class faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

You can guess what will happen then. Let's say it's 2 hours and they extend it to 3 hours. Then some people will say they need acommodation for 4 hours, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

I posted earlier--my child qualifies for accommodations. I would support accommodations for everyone. I think there will be a modest benefit for everyone, but it won't be as extreme for students without disabilities. At some point, it comes down to comprehension and reasoning. If everyone had the same accommodations, the kid with the higher reasoning IQ in the area being tested, is going to score higher. Performance scores are important- especially in deadline driven environments where people have to make decisions very quickly. My DS (ADHD) will not be flying fighter jets or taking verbal orders from shareholders at the NY stock exchange. There are many careers for him that slower, more deliberate, and require the kind of intellect that most people don't have. When someone finds an alternative energy source or cures cancer, it may be one of these hyper focused, twice exceptional kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

You can guess what will happen then. Let's say it's 2 hours and they extend it to 3 hours. Then some people will say they need acommodation for 4 hours, etc.

No. SAT will make it longer and charge more for the book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

it doesn't work that way... so it's stupid.

Listen lady, no kid with accommodations is taking your kids spot, just let it be.... ramps are not getting people in wheel chairs to class faster.

It is when you’re letting some kids have the ramps and making other kids use crutches and stairs.

And when kids game the system for extra time to get a score high enough to get into schools, they are taking seats from someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

Some of us are doing what we do just to get our kids to and through college, its not just about elite schools.

Well that's the same thing. The difference in earning power between a kid who goes to college and one who doesn't is tremendous. If it was possible to make a living wage without a college degree, there would be a lot less pressure for all this maneuvering.

All the electricians and plumbers I know make more than $100k/year. One plumber I know drives a Porsche.

LOL, $100K will probably be my kid's starting salary when he graduates. And my husband makes $750K and we drive 7 year old Hondas.

I know this is DCUM and every makes millions, but $100k is a respectable salary, and certainly a "living wage" which is what I was responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

And how could they test processing speed w accommodations of extra time and even usage of calculators and the abuse of the system?

First, both the SAT and ACT allow every student to use calculators.

These admissions tests now mostly cover knowledge from high school (why are now being used for statewide assessments in non-PARCC or Smarter Blanced States).

Processing speed is not discernible on these exams. And, as has been stated before, unless low processing speed is combined with something -- and has an impact academically -- you will not get accommodations.

My kid is in the 4th percentile for processing speed and gets straight As in his high school classes. He also is in the 99th percentile for reading and has a GAI of 130. He has some brain damage from birth. But despite his low processing speed he does not need extra time on the SAT or ACT, and if we asked he would certainly be turned down. Kids with neurological disorders are complex and don't all present the same way. And some of them figure out strategies over many years to overcome their challenges.

Calculators usage - not allowed on all portions unless one has accommodations. What I find curious is the resistance from parents who have accommodations for their kids to support extended time for everyone- if it is truly testing for knowledge, why not?

I have never met a parent with accommodation that does not think everybody should have the accommodations.

It's like giving glasses to somebody with 20/20 vision... it won't help. Nobody cares. We only care when a child with a disability is denied an accommodation.

This is ridiculous. Stop spreading this. Many kids would benefit.

No they won't. Give you kids the tests with accommodations then without and see for yourself.

Thought exercise for you then:

Your kid scores in 20th percentile for PS. 20th percentile is the trigger for accommodations.

Another kid scores 21st percentile. No accommodations.

Do you really think that other kid wouldn’t benefit from more time. I’m not saying this is exactly how it works. But there are kids who don’t get extra time because they just barely don’t score low enough.

I posted earlier--my child qualifies for accommodations. I would support accommodations for everyone. I think there will be a modest benefit for everyone, but it won't be as extreme for students without disabilities. At some point, it comes down to comprehension and reasoning. If everyone had the same accommodations, the kid with the higher reasoning IQ in the area being tested, is going to score higher. Performance scores are important- especially in deadline driven environments where people have to make decisions very quickly. My DS (ADHD) will not be flying fighter jets or taking verbal orders from shareholders at the NY stock exchange. There are many careers for him that slower, more deliberate, and require the kind of intellect that most people don't have. When someone finds an alternative energy source or cures cancer, it may be one of these hyper focused, twice exceptional kids.

The ACT tutor I talked to said time is the biggest problem *most* of her students have. The first thing she does is compare timed with unlimited to see if that’s a factor. And 90% it is. At least. The questions are actually really easy. You just have to be able to pace yourself. If you stop to think about a question for more than two min you are screwed.