Hijab/headscarf for Muslims

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I started wearing the hijab few years ago, and I was happy and very much satisfied with my decision. I never felt the scarf would hinder anything in my life or make me a subject to discrimination...but lately with all what's going on in the world with ISIS and the heated media against Muslims makes me angry because my religion got hijacked. I have to admit that I'm becoming way more sensitive to my surrounding now...there are times I get dirty looks here and there or sometimes people assume that I'm dumb or less educated...it bothers me.

Those of you wearing the scarf, what are your thoughts? Have you had any bad experience lately?

Those of you who are non Muslims, what are your thoughts when you see a woman wearing the scarf? Are you scared of Muslims?

Just left Safeway in Herndon after another great friday night live. Beautiful night. Many families out in herndon, lots of people, wearing summer clothes. Everyone having fun and dressed in shorts and light clothes.

And then in Safeway, a couple walked in, the man in t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers, dressed casually. The woman covered in head to toe with a black sheet. She had a 1 inch slit for her eyes. Walking behind the man, following him into Safeway about 10:00 at night, shuffling behind him.

So my immediate reaction was to race over and unchain this poor soul that is forced to cover head to toe in the heat, while her husband wears what ever he wants. Anyone that does this must be brainwashed or forced. No one in their right mind would cover themself head to toe in a black sheet in summer. Especially when their partner is dressed in normal clothes. It makes no sense. No god would would tell all women to bundle themselves and then let all the men dress however they want. I sure hope my daughter NEVER marries into a religion like that.

Those were my thoughts.

That shows a terrible lack of imagination on your part.

Although a bunch of my relatives cover like this, and if a random white chick raced to them while they are going about their business and began to prattle about unchaining their souls and tugging on their covers, they'd punch you in the face.

Oh please.

No woman voluntarily covers herself head to toe to finger in a heavy black blanket in the middle of a 90 degree heat wave in a country where she does not have to be oppressed unless she has been frightened and brainwashed by a cult to believe that her salvation is tied to her becoming completely invisible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You're in the wrong here. What you're saying is completely contrary to the spirit of the Quran, which has always claimed to be easily accessible to anybody who reads it. The Quran was never supposed to require years of study, or a priestly class to interpret it. In fact, it represented in part a reaction to early Christian theology, which involved complicated concepts like the Trinity and a growing priestly class. The whole point of the Quran was supposed to be that anybody could read it and instantly understand God's word.

In any case, it doesn't take years of study to understand that "draw your veil across your chest" means exactly that. No, I haven't read the original Arabic, and I'm sure you'll tax me with that. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems really unlikely that "chest" and "hair" would be the same word in Arabic.

[Isn't necessary to clarify, because the Quran is supposed to be accessible to all readers. But if you've been to college, you know that nothing is ever read without the prof providing lots and lots of context and history. Despite your snide remarks, I'm sure you know that.]

What the Quran claims to be and what it is are two very different things. Have you read the Quran? Then you know it's anything but clear and simple. It's vague, it's boring, it's rambly, it's contradictory and frankly erroneous at times. It most certainly doesn't have the effect it's supposed to have - that anybody can read it and instantly understand god's word. (Although I can totally see your sophomore self saying what you said above with a look of great earnestness).

What I am asking you, no, telling you - is that it takes much more than Islam 101 and its handful of sources to be able to say with confidence what is and is not religiously required. It certainly takes a special kind of arrogance on behalf of a non-Muslim uninvolved with the history, community and culture to try and tell Muslims about the "true" nature of their religion. You don't have the credentials to decide what their religion does and does not require. Leave it to the natives.

What on earth is wrong with you? Once more with feeling: Nobody, but nobody, here is telling Muslims to think anything. People here are expressing their opinions in response to OP's request for opinions. You and other Muslims are absolutely free to ignore the opinions expressed here. Doesn't bother me.

You have no right, however, to tell anybody here what to think, or worse, that they can't have opinions without a PhD. Why are you so determined to bully people into adopting your own opinions? Worse, you seem to be arguing above that nobody but Muslims are entitled to opinions.

You also don't seem capable of following arguments. You've completely missed the point above, which is that the passage about women covering their bosoms should be obvious on its face. Your contention that we all need PhDs to understand it is ludicrous, and very stupid. Congrats for discovering contradictions in the Quran (for the record, I agree), but if you didn't know that the Quran claims to be easy to understand, then you really are ignorant. In fact, if you did have a good alternative explanation for that passage, now would be a really good time to provide it. The fact you never argue substance, but instead you just insult people, suggests that your motives for coming on DCUM are, um, just to bully people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You're in the wrong here. What you're saying is completely contrary to the spirit of the Quran, which has always claimed to be easily accessible to anybody who reads it. The Quran was never supposed to require years of study, or a priestly class to interpret it. In fact, it represented in part a reaction to early Christian theology, which involved complicated concepts like the Trinity and a growing priestly class. The whole point of the Quran was supposed to be that anybody could read it and instantly understand God's word.

In any case, it doesn't take years of study to understand that "draw your veil across your chest" means exactly that. No, I haven't read the original Arabic, and I'm sure you'll tax me with that. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems really unlikely that "chest" and "hair" would be the same word in Arabic.

[Isn't necessary to clarify, because the Quran is supposed to be accessible to all readers. But if you've been to college, you know that nothing is ever read without the prof providing lots and lots of context and history. Despite your snide remarks, I'm sure you know that.]

What the Quran claims to be and what it is are two very different things. Have you read the Quran? Then you know it's anything but clear and simple. It's vague, it's boring, it's rambly, it's contradictory and frankly erroneous at times. It most certainly doesn't have the effect it's supposed to have - that anybody can read it and instantly understand god's word. (Although I can totally see your sophomore self saying what you said above with a look of great earnestness).

What I am asking you, no, telling you - is that it takes much more than Islam 101 and its handful of sources to be able to say with confidence what is and is not religiously required. It certainly takes a special kind of arrogance on behalf of a non-Muslim uninvolved with the history, community and culture to try and tell Muslims about the "true" nature of their religion. You don't have the credentials to decide what their religion does and does not require. Leave it to the natives.

What on earth is wrong with you? Once more with feeling: Nobody, but nobody, here is telling Muslims to think anything. People here are expressing their opinions in response to OP's request for opinions. You and other Muslims are absolutely free to ignore the opinions expressed here. Doesn't bother me.

You have no right, however, to tell anybody here what to think, or worse, that they can't have opinions without a PhD. Why are you so determined to bully people into adopting your own opinions? Worse, you seem to be arguing above that nobody but Muslims are entitled to opinions.

You also don't seem capable of following arguments. You've completely missed the point above, which is that the passage about women covering their bosoms should be obvious on its face. Your contention that we all need PhDs to understand it is ludicrous, and very stupid. Congrats for discovering contradictions in the Quran (for the record, I agree), but if you didn't know that the Quran claims to be easy to understand, then you really are ignorant. In fact, if you did have a good alternative explanation for that passage, now would be a really good time to provide it. The fact you never argue substance, but instead you just insult people, suggests that your motives for coming on DCUM are, um, just to bully people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What I am asking you, no, telling you - is that it takes much more than Islam 101 and its handful of sources to be able to say with confidence what is and is not religiously required. It certainly takes a special kind of arrogance on behalf of a non-Muslim uninvolved with the history, community and culture to try and tell Muslims about the "true" nature of their religion. You don't have the credentials to decide what their religion does and does not require. Leave it to the natives.

Wait, we have agreement! You agree that a large part is cultural and community, rather than scriptural. That's what several posters here have been saying all along.

Can we end the thread now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What on earth is wrong with you? Once more with feeling: Nobody, but nobody, here is telling Muslims to think anything. People here are expressing their opinions in response to OP's request for opinions. You and other Muslims are absolutely free to ignore the opinions expressed here. Doesn't bother me.

You have no right, however, to tell anybody here what to think, or worse, that they can't have opinions without a PhD. Why are you so determined to bully people into adopting your own opinions? Worse, you seem to be arguing above that nobody but Muslims are entitled to opinions.

You also don't seem capable of following arguments. You've completely missed the point above, which is that the passage about women covering their bosoms should be obvious on its face. Your contention that we all need PhDs to understand it is ludicrous, and very stupid. Congrats for discovering contradictions in the Quran (for the record, I agree), but if you didn't know that the Quran claims to be easy to understand, then you really are ignorant. In fact, if you did have a good alternative explanation for that passage, now would be a really good time to provide it. The fact you never argue substance, but instead you just insult people, suggests that your motives for coming on DCUM are, um, just to bully people.

You are just so cute when you speak with feeling. Here it is. You can have all kinds of opinions, including opinions on things about which you know nothing. You can have an opinion on French spelling, on car mechanics, on nuclear fission, all while being blessedly ignorant of all three - there's no law against appearing stupid, is there?

Who cares what the Quran claims? You say it claims to be easy to understand? Well it isn't. Otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of interpreting the Quran. So let's stop with the "Quran is easy to understand" business because this claim is nonsense on its face. To claim something isn't to be something.

My dear, you are clinging to the passage about covered bosoms with all the ardor of a puppy with his favorite bone, as if this is the beginning and the end of all religious discourse on women's attire. Is it? Did you know there's a ton of OTHER Quranic lines that talk about women's clothes? And that they don't all say the same thing? And the hadith? And the context around them? And the sum of scholarly opinion? And the practice? In all different schools? And the process of weighing one against another and resolving contradictions?

I'll say it again: You are vastly out of your depth when you try to deliver rulings on what is and is not religiously required, and your head is too small for that particular turban. You simply cannot make that deduction on the basis of a single line in a single chapter in a single source. Even if you don't need a PhD to understand that particular single line. That's not enough. Even if you did make an A in your Islam 101 Sophomore year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What on earth is wrong with you? Once more with feeling: Nobody, but nobody, here is telling Muslims to think anything. People here are expressing their opinions in response to OP's request for opinions. You and other Muslims are absolutely free to ignore the opinions expressed here. Doesn't bother me.

You have no right, however, to tell anybody here what to think, or worse, that they can't have opinions without a PhD. Why are you so determined to bully people into adopting your own opinions? Worse, you seem to be arguing above that nobody but Muslims are entitled to opinions.

You also don't seem capable of following arguments. You've completely missed the point above, which is that the passage about women covering their bosoms should be obvious on its face. Your contention that we all need PhDs to understand it is ludicrous, and very stupid. Congrats for discovering contradictions in the Quran (for the record, I agree), but if you didn't know that the Quran claims to be easy to understand, then you really are ignorant. In fact, if you did have a good alternative explanation for that passage, now would be a really good time to provide it. The fact you never argue substance, but instead you just insult people, suggests that your motives for coming on DCUM are, um, just to bully people.

You are just so cute when you speak with feeling. Here it is. You can have all kinds of opinions, including opinions on things about which you know nothing. You can have an opinion on French spelling, on car mechanics, on nuclear fission, all while being blessedly ignorant of all three - there's no law against appearing stupid, is there?

Who cares what the Quran claims? You say it claims to be easy to understand? Well it isn't. Otherwise there wouldn't be a whole industry of interpreting the Quran. So let's stop with the "Quran is easy to understand" business because this claim is nonsense on its face. To claim something isn't to be something.

My dear, you are clinging to the passage about covered bosoms with all the ardor of a puppy with his favorite bone, as if this is the beginning and the end of all religious discourse on women's attire. Is it? Did you know there's a ton of OTHER Quranic lines that talk about women's clothes? And that they don't all say the same thing? And the hadith? And the context around them? And the sum of scholarly opinion? And the practice? In all different schools? And the process of weighing one against another and resolving contradictions?

I'll say it again: You are vastly out of your depth when you try to deliver rulings on what is and is not religiously required, and your head is too small for that particular turban. You simply cannot make that deduction on the basis of a single line in a single chapter in a single source. Even if you don't need a PhD to understand that particular single line. That's not enough. Even if you did make an A in your Islam 101 Sophomore year.

Where's your substance? Let's see.... There is none. Only insults. If you think ad hominems are the way to win an argument, then you just lost it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I am asking you, no, telling you - is that it takes much more than Islam 101 and its handful of sources to be able to say with confidence what is and is not religiously required. It certainly takes a special kind of arrogance on behalf of a non-Muslim uninvolved with the history, community and culture to try and tell Muslims about the "true" nature of their religion. You don't have the credentials to decide what their religion does and does not require. Leave it to the natives.

Wait, we have agreement! You agree that a large part is cultural and community, rather than scriptural. That's what several posters here have been saying all along.

Can we end the thread now?

This, a million times. Until and unless abusive PP with the ad hominems comes back with some actual substance.

[Anonymous]

Dear 13:42, you've driven everybody off with your insults and condescension (condescension that, btw, seems completely unjustified by your apparently paltry personal knowledge of Islam).

Please do not mistake this for having *convinced* a single person here. If anything, you've apparently disgusted several people on this thread, which, as you may know, tends to make people dig in. Calling people lobotomized is for five year olds.

Also you haven't demonstrated much knowledge of Islam yourself. So it looks ridiculous for you to accuse others of lacking knowledge.

Next time, try presenting *facts* in a *pleasant* manner. You may have to study whatever subject at hand to do this, but the payoff should be obvious. Perhaps then you might win an argument not by disgusting everybody until they leave, but on the merits.

Sincerely, another poster who has no more time for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dear 13:42, you've driven everybody off with your insults and condescension (condescension that, btw, seems completely unjustified by your apparently paltry personal knowledge of Islam).

Please do not mistake this for having *convinced* a single person here. If anything, you've apparently disgusted several people on this thread, which, as you may know, tends to make people dig in. Calling people lobotomized is for five year olds.

Also you haven't demonstrated much knowledge of Islam yourself. So it looks ridiculous for you to accuse others of lacking knowledge.

Next time, try presenting *facts* in a *pleasant* manner. You may have to study whatever subject at hand to do this, but the payoff should be obvious. Perhaps then you might win an argument not by disgusting everybody until they leave, but on the merits.

Sincerely, another poster who has no more time for you

I feel completely certain that my knowledge of Islam exceeds that of every non-Muslim poster in this thread. I've never met a single non-Muslim who knows more about Islam than me. They do exist, of course. But not here.

In the meantime, methinks you have to decide if you're being driven off or digging in. Because they are kind of not the same.

I am not sure exactly what substance you expect to receive from me. That you can't form a judgment on whether this is something is or is not religiously required on the basis of a single line in a single source? That seems self-evident. Perhaps not to you, who knows?

In case this hasn't been made completely obvious, I have no opinion on whether covering your head is or is not religiously required in Islam. I refrain from having opinions on the subjects that require more study than I am inclined to invest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear 13:42, you've driven everybody off with your insults and condescension (condescension that, btw, seems completely unjustified by your apparently paltry personal knowledge of Islam).

Please do not mistake this for having *convinced* a single person here. If anything, you've apparently disgusted several people on this thread, which, as you may know, tends to make people dig in. Calling people lobotomized is for five year olds.

Also you haven't demonstrated much knowledge of Islam yourself. So it looks ridiculous for you to accuse others of lacking knowledge.

Next time, try presenting *facts* in a *pleasant* manner. You may have to study whatever subject at hand to do this, but the payoff should be obvious. Perhaps then you might win an argument not by disgusting everybody until they leave, but on the merits.

Sincerely, another poster who has no more time for you

I feel completely certain that my knowledge of Islam exceeds that of every non-Muslim poster in this thread. I've never met a single non-Muslim who knows more about Islam than me. They do exist, of course. But not here.

In the meantime, methinks you have to decide if you're being driven off or digging in. Because they are kind of not the same.

I am not sure exactly what substance you expect to receive from me. That you can't form a judgment on whether this is something is or is not religiously required on the basis of a single line in a single source? That seems self-evident. Perhaps not to you, who knows?

In case this hasn't been made completely obvious, I have no opinion on whether covering your head is or is not religiously required in Islam. I refrain from having opinions on the subjects that require more study than I am inclined to invest.

You're talking to several posters here.

"Because I said so" is not an answer. There is plenty of substance you could have offered to demonstrate all this knowledge you claim. To start, how about quoting one of these other verses in the Quran that you mentioned above, which you claim will settle the question about whether the Quran requires women to cover their hair or more. Wait, you can't find it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You're talking to several posters here.

"Because I said so" is not an answer. There is plenty of substance you could have offered to demonstrate all this knowledge you claim. To start, how about quoting one of these other verses in the Quran that you mentioned above, which you claim will settle the question about whether the Quran requires women to cover their hair or more. Wait, you can't find it?

?? Are you reading what I'm writing or are you just talking to yourself? Did I ever claim there are verses in the Quran that can settle the question whether or not it requires women to cover?

[Anonymous]

I view the hijab as a sign of subservience and inequality. I view them with contempt because of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dear, you are clinging to the passage about covered bosoms with all the ardor of a puppy with his favorite bone, as if this is the beginning and the end of all religious discourse on women's attire. Is it? Did you know there's a ton of OTHER Quranic lines that talk about women's clothes? And that they don't all say the same thing? And the hadith? And the context around them? And the sum of scholarly opinion? And the practice? In all different schools? And the process of weighing one against another and resolving contradictions?

[Anonymous]

Covering (and its many levels) is due to a bastardized interpretation of the Quran.

So I ask this - Who - MALE or FEMALE - interpreted the Quran in this manner, forcing women to cover from head to toe?

I think we have an answer and it certainly won't receive approval from Gloria Steinem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Covering (and its many levels) is due to a bastardized interpretation of the Quran.

So I ask this - Who - MALE or FEMALE - interpreted the Quran in this manner, forcing women to cover from head to toe?

I think we have an answer and it certainly won't receive approval from Gloria Steinem.

Sure. Whatever you say, o the mufti of DCUM.