Hush on skin tone. Got it. Red Line attack-take 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, you are allowed to move in America. Yes, people choose to live there. I understand many are constrained by circumstance and as you and I know, they are most likely to be victims of the criminal thugs. Like the 'Awakening' units in Iraq, they could join forces to patrol/protect/ inform on their neighborhoods. Inner City Chicago is a War Zone. Just look away? We know how to deal with insurgencies; we have done it very well when allowed.

To where, and with what money? There are many people who would like to know the answers to these questions. So it would be great if you could provide them!

And I'm talking about using a police or military response to stabilize a pretty unliveable situation so people don't have to move. At what point do you say enough when kids are getting shot through the walls of their homes? We can stabilize insurgent zones overseas and build schools, but not here? I'd rather do it in our inner cities and Appalachia, the Southern poverty belt.

These kids care nothing about the police. They don't fear them and they don't respect them. Increased police presence in one area will just increase crime in another. All this does is move the problem elsewhere. Consequences need to be swift and severe. Jailing more and more and more and more people solves nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a military family, the idea that the military itself--funding cut, fighting with one hand behind its back--should now babysit petty criminals is laughable to me. On the other hand, I do think our inner cities resemble war zones and we could absolutely have a military/civilian solution in a place like Chicago or Baltimore: send in a "surge" of National Guard (we can't send in the military due to posse comitatus unless we change our laws) to deal with the Isis like thugs who shoot children in alleys, and then a 50 year Marshall plan. Top-down. Tell people who choose to live there exactly what to do. I think the law abiding and productive would be grateful.

Who said anything about enlisting murderers?

Well, this started as a response to "What should be done about violent youths like the ones that attacked this poor man on the Red Line?"

That was pretty much attempted murder, and those are not the kinds of individuals you want to hand a gun and turn loose on civilian populations in troubled parts of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I offered solutions in the deleted thread. In a nutshell:

Criminal mischief should result in immediate enlistment in the military. No go home and pack. Hold them and arrange for immediate enlistment. No second chances. First offense and you're gone. Unless you scare these kids they will not change. Their parents will not (or have tried and failed) to raise them to be productive members of society. Jailing them results in hardened criminals so it makes a bad situation worse.

-AA woman here who realizes that there is no redeeming some kids without immediate swift and harsh action.

Honestly, I think this shows a lot of disrespect for the men and women in uniform. We don't need violent criminals filling the ranks of our armed forces, particularly as so much of the job of an enlisted soldier is to engage with civilians in war zones. That you think the military - a proud tradition with many qualified and educated Americans - should be treated as a de facto penal colony shows how much you think of the armed forces.

+1

I am not the pp. I am a conservative who has a son in the military.
Perhaps the pp has so much respect for the military that she knows the military can actually turn some of these kids around. The military DEMANDS respect from those who are in the military - perhaps she believes this “tough love” of sorts is something these kids need because their parents have not been successful. They learn respect, discipline, and are expected to obey their chain of command.
I’m not sure making mandatory service for criminally mischievous kids is the answer, I am just trying to see her point.

Most of the kids I've seen in alternative settings will not survive in life, as they've been neglected by parents and passed along in the school system. I don't know what the answer is, but the military isn't it. If they can tell a teacher to fuck off, call women cunts to their faces, and physically intimidate staff members, they won't last a day in the service. Prison only hardens them, but it's - sadly - the path many will take.

We've fucked ourselves by refusing to allow schools to educate - fearing instead the wrath of central office for suspending too many disruptive kids yet REFUSING to provide the social services educators need in order to take proactive measures at the elementary level when kids start to show signs of abuse and neglect.

So we end up with gangs of assholes (yes, assholes) who thrive on harming others . . . b/c that's all they know. It's their way to control their lives.

I don't believe this. We're not talking about sending groups of kids to the same military unit. If you have ONE kid enlisted, his attitude at first might be eff off. But, that's the beauty of the military. You learn discipline, respect, how to follow orders, are around positive people, etc. This is not an overnight process. It's a four year program and I think it could be life changing for many young kids who just need a chance.

School is not the answer. These kids don't give a damn.

[Anonymous]

Back to the topic, Red Line attack-take 3.

Given all the threats our city is under, why is there no coordinated way to lock down metro and conduct a search? I find reports that the kids may have escaped on a train going in the opposite direction (despite being pointed our by witnesses) very disturbing. Why can't we put checkpoints at entrances/exits and stop trains????

In the smoke train disaster, we found out metro radios don't work--despite all the lessons of 9/11 and orders to fix those systems going back to 9/11. Similar with cellphone coverage. And they can't even hold a train?

Why is there no inter metro communication system between customers- WMATA workers - WMATA police that works, as well as coordination below ground from WMATA police and above ground with regular DC police response?

It is unacceptable that we are unable to muster a response to a mob attack in a contained space, that should have both communication AND surveillance systems, as well as controlled entrances and egresses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I offered solutions in the deleted thread. In a nutshell:

Criminal mischief should result in immediate enlistment in the military. No go home and pack. Hold them and arrange for immediate enlistment. No second chances. First offense and you're gone. Unless you scare these kids they will not change. Their parents will not (or have tried and failed) to raise them to be productive members of society. Jailing them results in hardened criminals so it makes a bad situation worse.

-AA woman here who realizes that there is no redeeming some kids without immediate swift and harsh action.

Honestly, I think this shows a lot of disrespect for the men and women in uniform. We don't need violent criminals filling the ranks of our armed forces, particularly as so much of the job of an enlisted soldier is to engage with civilians in war zones. That you think the military - a proud tradition with many qualified and educated Americans - should be treated as a de facto penal colony shows how much you think of the armed forces.

+1

I am not the pp. I am a conservative who has a son in the military.
Perhaps the pp has so much respect for the military that she knows the military can actually turn some of these kids around. The military DEMANDS respect from those who are in the military - perhaps she believes this “tough love” of sorts is something these kids need because their parents have not been successful. They learn respect, discipline, and are expected to obey their chain of command.
I’m not sure making mandatory service for criminally mischievous kids is the answer, I am just trying to see her point.

Instead of shipping kids out, how about bringing the military in? Do you think a retired general who administered a sector in Baghdad couldn't restore some order?


I'm that pp and that's exactly my point. I think the military would do an excellent job. Jail is about profit, NOT rehabilitation. Should we just jail everybody or should we actually try to come up with solutions to turn things around. Many of these teens are young enough to turn things around, if given a fighting chance. But, it takes getting out of their environment and away from the kids who influence negative behavior.

But, what will happen to these kids? What does their future hold? For me, it's not just about restoring order but actually trying to turn many of these children into successes. Sure you can police more and bring in the military, but then what?

With the military option, these kids get to see a world outside of their public housing. They get to meet people other than like-minded deviants. They are exposed to a different way to live their lives. I'm black and grew up in the projects. While we had mentors who would come in and tell us about what great things we could accomplish if we try, it all seemed like a fairy tale idea. Actually seeing and experiencing these things could change lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a military family, the idea that the military itself--funding cut, fighting with one hand behind its back--should now babysit petty criminals is laughable to me. On the other hand, I do think our inner cities resemble war zones and we could absolutely have a military/civilian solution in a place like Chicago or Baltimore: send in a "surge" of National Guard (we can't send in the military due to posse comitatus unless we change our laws) to deal with the Isis like thugs who shoot children in alleys, and then a 50 year Marshall plan. Top-down. Tell people who choose to live there exactly what to do. I think the law abiding and productive would be grateful.

Who said anything about enlisting murderers?

Well, this started as a response to "What should be done about violent youths like the ones that attacked this poor man on the Red Line?"

That was pretty much attempted murder, and those are not the kinds of individuals you want to hand a gun and turn loose on civilian populations in troubled parts of the world.

Yes but the conversation has evolved.Rather than jump to the extreme end of things, let's try to be rational here. Anyone who participates in a brutal beating such as this deserves jail, not military enlistment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back to the topic, Red Line attack-take 3.

Given all the threats our city is under, why is there no coordinated way to lock down metro and conduct a search? I find reports that the kids may have escaped on a train going in the opposite direction (despite being pointed our by witnesses) very disturbing. Why can't we put checkpoints at entrances/exits and stop trains????

In the smoke train disaster, we found out metro radios don't work--despite all the lessons of 9/11 and orders to fix those systems going back to 9/11. Similar with cellphone coverage. And they can't even hold a train?

Why is there no inter metro communication system between customers- WMATA workers - WMATA police that works, as well as coordination below ground from WMATA police and above ground with regular DC police response?

It is unacceptable that we are unable to muster a response to a mob attack in a contained space, that should have both communication AND surveillance systems, as well as controlled entrances and egresses.

All of your questions are good ones but they are reactive, not proactive. Whether they quickly apprehend the suspects or not, the man is still beaten.

[Anonymous]

I'm the pp who suggested the military for reform.

While I think the military is the best option, another idea:

-(I mentioned this is one of the deleted threads) - Immediately relocate families with children engaged in *petty* criminal mischief. They are moved no less than 50 miles away. Relocation is immediate...no waiting period. For the majority of these kids, it will take moving away from toxic environments/friends. That is 99% of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a military family, the idea that the military itself--funding cut, fighting with one hand behind its back--should now babysit petty criminals is laughable to me. On the other hand, I do think our inner cities resemble war zones and we could absolutely have a military/civilian solution in a place like Chicago or Baltimore: send in a "surge" of National Guard (we can't send in the military due to posse comitatus unless we change our laws) to deal with the Isis like thugs who shoot children in alleys, and then a 50 year Marshall plan. Top-down. Tell people who choose to live there exactly what to do. I think the law abiding and productive would be grateful.

Who said anything about enlisting murderers?

Well, this started as a response to "What should be done about violent youths like the ones that attacked this poor man on the Red Line?"

That was pretty much attempted murder, and those are not the kinds of individuals you want to hand a gun and turn loose on civilian populations in troubled parts of the world.

Yes but the conversation has evolved.Rather than jump to the extreme end of things, let's try to be rational here. Anyone who participates in a brutal beating such as this deserves jail, not military enlistment.

Underage children punishment is a revolving door in DC. There needs to be reform and much more serious rehab. the problem is, they don't even know if they caught the kids? How can you punish them? These mobs are learning they can operate with impunity. Metro policing and coordination is chaos. You are taking your life in your hands if you choose to ride it or the buses. The people who suffer most are the hardworking folks who are forced to use it to get to work.

I am for CCTVs everywhere, checkpoints, and roving youth police (like the truancy van I saw in Tenleytown), and reform/transparency to youth punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a military family, the idea that the military itself--funding cut, fighting with one hand behind its back--should now babysit petty criminals is laughable to me. On the other hand, I do think our inner cities resemble war zones and we could absolutely have a military/civilian solution in a place like Chicago or Baltimore: send in a "surge" of National Guard (we can't send in the military due to posse comitatus unless we change our laws) to deal with the Isis like thugs who shoot children in alleys, and then a 50 year Marshall plan. Top-down. Tell people who choose to live there exactly what to do. I think the law abiding and productive would be grateful.

Who said anything about enlisting murderers?

Well, this started as a response to "What should be done about violent youths like the ones that attacked this poor man on the Red Line?"

That was pretty much attempted murder, and those are not the kinds of individuals you want to hand a gun and turn loose on civilian populations in troubled parts of the world.

Yes but the conversation has evolved.Rather than jump to the extreme end of things, let's try to be rational here. Anyone who participates in a brutal beating such as this deserves jail, not military enlistment.

Underage children punishment is a revolving door in DC. There needs to be reform and much more serious rehab. the problem is, they don't even know if they caught the kids? How can you punish them? These mobs are learning they can operate with impunity. Metro policing and coordination is chaos. You are taking your life in your hands if you choose to ride it or the buses. The people who suffer most are the hardworking folks who are forced to use it to get to work.

I am for CCTVs everywhere, checkpoints, and roving youth police (like the truancy van I saw in Tenleytown), and reform/transparency to youth punishment.

I agree, which is why military is the answer. Too young for enlistment? Military boarding school until 18 with a heavy influence on education and community service. At graduation, automatic military enrollment. These kids should NOT be allowed to reenter society without at least 4-5 years of behavior correction. Right now, this "correction" is happening in our jail system and it is NOT effective.

The ONLY thing that will get through to these kids is swift and permanent consequences. They don't care about getting arrested or sent to juvenile detention (it's bragging rights for many). They don't care about school or education. They don't care if their actions will have consequences for their parents. Mainly, because the punishments are abstract and easily bendable. We need to rectify this and show them we mean business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the pp who suggested the military for reform.

While I think the military is the best option, another idea:

-(I mentioned this is one of the deleted threads) - Immediately relocate families with children engaged in *petty* criminal mischief. They are moved no less than 50 miles away. Relocation is immediate...no waiting period. For the majority of these kids, it will take moving away from toxic environments/friends. That is 99% of the problem.

Hmmm. some families might appreciate this if relocation assistance were offered. Many of these kids are being raised by grandparents in no shape to do this. Some are just kids choosing to do the right thing as part of perfectly well functioning families. Then you would be punishing and fraying the lives of parents and siblings. I think a more robust mandatory rehab offering--like a disciplinized JobCorps geared to their needs--is a better idea, once they have served their time. meaning, it shouldn't be a revolving door back to the community. Let them come back with more discipline, education, jobs skills and a plan and counselor.And remember, there has to a long term plan to mitigate this chaos- --often the 'streets' won't let kids go who returns. which is why police should be supported and community policing absolutely embraced. And perhaps that would be a good time to offer to relocate people so they could make a fresh start. Last, I have nothing against youth records being sealed so they can be employed so long as they demonstrate change and growth in a supervised program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a military family, the idea that the military itself--funding cut, fighting with one hand behind its back--should now babysit petty criminals is laughable to me. On the other hand, I do think our inner cities resemble war zones and we could absolutely have a military/civilian solution in a place like Chicago or Baltimore: send in a "surge" of National Guard (we can't send in the military due to posse comitatus unless we change our laws) to deal with the Isis like thugs who shoot children in alleys, and then a 50 year Marshall plan. Top-down. Tell people who choose to live there exactly what to do. I think the law abiding and productive would be grateful.

Who said anything about enlisting murderers?

Well, this started as a response to "What should be done about violent youths like the ones that attacked this poor man on the Red Line?"

That was pretty much attempted murder, and those are not the kinds of individuals you want to hand a gun and turn loose on civilian populations in troubled parts of the world.

Yes but the conversation has evolved.Rather than jump to the extreme end of things, let's try to be rational here. Anyone who participates in a brutal beating such as this deserves jail, not military enlistment.

Underage children punishment is a revolving door in DC. There needs to be reform and much more serious rehab. the problem is, they don't even know if they caught the kids? How can you punish them? These mobs are learning they can operate with impunity. Metro policing and coordination is chaos. You are taking your life in your hands if you choose to ride it or the buses. The people who suffer most are the hardworking folks who are forced to use it to get to work.

I am for CCTVs everywhere, checkpoints, and roving youth police (like the truancy van I saw in Tenleytown), and reform/transparency to youth punishment.

I agree, which is why military is the answer. Too young for enlistment? Military boarding school until 18 with a heavy influence on education and community service. At graduation, automatic military enrollment. These kids should NOT be allowed to reenter society without at least 4-5 years of behavior correction. Right now, this "correction" is happening in our jail system and it is NOT effective.

The ONLY thing that will get through to these kids is swift and permanent consequences. They don't care about getting arrested or sent to juvenile detention (it's bragging rights for many). They don't care about school or education. They don't care if their actions will have consequences for their parents. Mainly, because the punishments are abstract and easily bendable. We need to rectify this and show them we mean business.

I just think this is a disservice and misunderstanding of the military. I have no problem with a military like reform program (you mention military school) and once the kids have rehabbed the military could be a wonderful option, but though it has changed many lives it is not a reform program in and of itself. It's also unfair to the parents who send their trusting, do good 18 and 19 years olds off for voluntary service to be bunking and serving in this scenario.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the topic, Red Line attack-take 3.

Given all the threats our city is under, why is there no coordinated way to lock down metro and conduct a search? I find reports that the kids may have escaped on a train going in the opposite direction (despite being pointed our by witnesses) very disturbing. Why can't we put checkpoints at entrances/exits and stop trains????

In the smoke train disaster, we found out metro radios don't work--despite all the lessons of 9/11 and orders to fix those systems going back to 9/11. Similar with cellphone coverage. And they can't even hold a train?

Why is there no inter metro communication system between customers- WMATA workers - WMATA police that works, as well as coordination below ground from WMATA police and above ground with regular DC police response?

It is unacceptable that we are unable to muster a response to a mob attack in a contained space, that should have both communication AND surveillance systems, as well as controlled entrances and egresses.

All of your questions are good ones but they are reactive, not proactive. Whether they quickly apprehend the suspects or not, the man is still beaten.

Thank you. There is a deterrant effect to catching these flash mobs versus them saying ha ha and getting away with it in Gtwon, Tenleytown, Metro. Could it even be the same kids? Who even knows if you don't apprehend them. Either way, these crimes are happening and there are other threats to public safety out there. We are far safer if we have coordinated policing and emergency response than if we don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the topic, Red Line attack-take 3.

Given all the threats our city is under, why is there no coordinated way to lock down metro and conduct a search? I find reports that the kids may have escaped on a train going in the opposite direction (despite being pointed our by witnesses) very disturbing. Why can't we put checkpoints at entrances/exits and stop trains????

In the smoke train disaster, we found out metro radios don't work--despite all the lessons of 9/11 and orders to fix those systems going back to 9/11. Similar with cellphone coverage. And they can't even hold a train?

Why is there no inter metro communication system between customers- WMATA workers - WMATA police that works, as well as coordination below ground from WMATA police and above ground with regular DC police response?

It is unacceptable that we are unable to muster a response to a mob attack in a contained space, that should have both communication AND surveillance systems, as well as controlled entrances and egresses.

All of your questions are good ones but they are reactive, not proactive. Whether they quickly apprehend the suspects or not, the man is still beaten.

Thank you. There is a deterrant effect to catching these flash mobs versus them saying ha ha and getting away with it in Gtwon, Tenleytown, Metro. Could it even be the same kids? Who even knows if you don't apprehend them. Either way, these crimes are happening and there are other threats to public safety out there. We are far safer if we have coordinated policing and emergency response than if we don't.

And the point is obviously to be proactive. To address these gaps would be both overdue, and proactive for the next time. Which sadly, the "next times' are become fairly routine. Must be addressed, pronto.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the pp who suggested the military for reform.

While I think the military is the best option, another idea:

-(I mentioned this is one of the deleted threads) - Immediately relocate families with children engaged in *petty* criminal mischief. They are moved no less than 50 miles away. Relocation is immediate...no waiting period. For the majority of these kids, it will take moving away from toxic environments/friends. That is 99% of the problem.

Hmmm. some families might appreciate this if relocation assistance were offered. Many of these kids are being raised by grandparents in no shape to do this. Some are just kids choosing to do the right thing as part of perfectly well functioning families. Then you would be punishing and fraying the lives of parents and siblings. I think a more robust mandatory rehab offering--like a disciplinized JobCorps geared to their needs--is a better idea, once they have served their time. meaning, it shouldn't be a revolving door back to the community. Let them come back with more discipline, education, jobs skills and a plan and counselor.And remember, there has to a long term plan to mitigate this chaos- --often the 'streets' won't let kids go who returns. which is why police should be supported and community policing absolutely embraced. And perhaps that would be a good time to offer to relocate people so they could make a fresh start. Last, I have nothing against youth records being sealed so they can be employed so long as they demonstrate change and growth in a supervised program.

JobCorps is ineffective. Largely, it's a place where the same group of kids go so they aren't being removed from the toxic friends/environment. Plus, it's voluntary so not effective.