Ward 2/3 High School proposal in the NW Current

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.

My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

And there is urgency in figuring this out because it takes time to change or create a school that will be an attractive alternative to Ward 3.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

If there are families EOTP like yours, zoned for Deal or not, that prefer to attend middle school EOTP, then those families should start meeting once a month over a bottle of wine (in person; nothing will ever get accomplished on DCUM!) and discussing which existing or new school they want to attend, and then work on it. Who knows, maybe it will become the most sought after school, as Jeff suggests, and we'll all be trying to get in OOB.

[Anonymous]

Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

Alternatively, we should assume that they know what to say to get re-elected. I really don't see the wisdom in building a school WotP that will be filled with kids from EotP while several recently-renovated EotP schools sit half empty. I'd rather spend that money doubling or tripling teacher and administrator salaries to attract the best talent nation-wide to the EotP schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.
My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

16:47 again (not who you're responding to here). I appreciate the inclusive nature of an "additive" process, but it just won't work here IMHO. Few families will volunteer to pioneer a new EotP school. Most will just continue to fight like hell to get access to WotP schools, and will only switch after other families have put in lots of sweat equity to build the EotP schools. In essence, too many will free-ride.

I know it's incredibly unpopular, but I think the only way DCPS will get a new school to thrive will be to force strong communities to attend the school. To me, the strong communities poised to build such a school are will have committed parents, above-average income, and lots of racial diversity. The EotP neighborhoods like Mt Pleasant, 16th St Heights, Petworth, etc are the right ones to build a strong set of elementary/middle/high schools in their neighborhood. Again, I know it's unpopular, but I think they need to be pushed out of the Deal/Wilson nest, so they will fly. I also think those neighborhoods could get tons of extra support from DCPS if they volunteer to be zoned out of Deal/Wilson. They could get almost all the elements they want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Bancroft parent wrote:I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I'm 16:47, who asked you why you would not consider any EotP schools for your children. Since you are concerned about bias, I'll disclose that I am not Ward 3, and I'm not even in bounds for Deal, Hardy, or Wilson. I am well EotP, and the only way my children could attend one of those schools is via some sort of OOB lottery opportunity.

I find it frustrating and unfair that you paint all Ward 3 parents as if they were trying to achieve a "lily white" school, and yet you paint your motives as pure and only merits-based. I'd bet 99% of those Ward 3 parents want just the same things you do -- quality schools -- and they don't care about the race issues you raise. You accuse them of "red lining" based solely on the disparate racial impact you claim will arise if your own neighborhood is denied access. But when you explain why you're rejecting your own neighborhood schools, it seems you could be accused of red-lining yourself. I'm not laying that accusation on you, because I give you the benefit of the doubt. But I think you owe that same benefit of the doubt to people who live in other neighborhoods.

If you want any of these discussions to move us all forward, you need to stop the unfair attacks on people who disagree with you.

Bancroft parent here - I was not the poster who used terms like "lilly white" and I never attacked anyone. I did explain red-lining, because it is apparently a blind spot for many on DCUM. My point was, drop that proposal because it will never fly. I was not imputing racist motives, just pointing out how the courts would see it. I realize it could have been misinterpreted though, so my apologies for that.

Regarding the phrase in bold, Deal and Wilson are the neighborhood schools for Mount Pleasant, and Bancroft has fed to Deal for decades. Somewhere along the way, this insidious habit crept in to refer to Deal and Wilson as "WOTP schools", as if all of us EOTP are some how OOB for those schools. I am not rejecting any neighborhood schools, rather, I am saying that we should be able to keep our neighborhood schools.

Only governments and companies that provide goods and services can redline, but I am interpreting this as you saying that I don't want to attend schools that are mostly composed of racial minorities. Is that what you are getting at?

I gave you a long list of explicit criteria, some of which have no relation to race, and others which are race-neutral in substance, but yes, highly correlated with race in Washington DC. But, if I were so opposed to attending racially diverse schools, why would I send my kids to Bancroft, with its 80% latino and black combined, and 70% FARMs? Why would I want to go to Wilson with its 45% African-American population? Obviously, I am comfortable with schools where whites are the minority. But I am not comfortable with poor-quality schools and will oppose any attempt to worsen education quality for our neighborhood and its families.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Bancroft parent wrote:I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I'm 16:47, who asked you why you would not consider any EotP schools for your children. Since you are concerned about bias, I'll disclose that I am not Ward 3, and I'm not even in bounds for Deal, Hardy, or Wilson. I am well EotP, and the only way my children could attend one of those schools is via some sort of OOB lottery opportunity.

I find it frustrating and unfair that you paint all Ward 3 parents as if they were trying to achieve a "lily white" school, and yet you paint your motives as pure and only merits-based. I'd bet 99% of those Ward 3 parents want just the same things you do -- quality schools -- and they don't care about the race issues you raise. You accuse them of "red lining" based solely on the disparate racial impact you claim will arise if your own neighborhood is denied access. But when you explain why you're rejecting your own neighborhood schools, it seems you could be accused of red-lining yourself. I'm not laying that accusation on you, because I give you the benefit of the doubt. But I think you owe that same benefit of the doubt to people who live in other neighborhoods.

If you want any of these discussions to move us all forward, you need to stop the unfair attacks on people who disagree with you.

Bancroft parent here - I was not the poster who used terms like "lilly white" and I never attacked anyone. I did explain red-lining, because it is apparently a blind spot for many on DCUM. My point was, drop that proposal because it will never fly. I was not imputing racist motives, just pointing out how the courts would see it. I realize it could have been misinterpreted though, so my apologies for that.

Regarding the phrase in bold, Deal and Wilson are the neighborhood schools for Mount Pleasant, and Bancroft has fed to Deal for decades. Somewhere along the way, this insidious habit crept in to refer to Deal and Wilson as "WOTP schools", as if all of us EOTP are some how OOB for those schools. I am not rejecting any neighborhood schools, rather, I am saying that we should be able to keep our neighborhood schools.

Only governments and companies that provide goods and services can redline, but I am interpreting this as you saying that I don't want to attend schools that are mostly composed of racial minorities. Is that what you are getting at?

I gave you a long list of explicit criteria, some of which have no relation to race, and others which are race-neutral in substance, but yes, highly correlated with race in Washington DC. But, if I were so opposed to attending racially diverse schools, why would I send my kids to Bancroft, with its 80% latino and black combined, and 70% FARMs? Why would I want to go to Wilson with its 45% African-American population? Obviously, I am comfortable with schools where whites are the minority. But I am not comfortable with poor-quality schools and will oppose any attempt to worsen education quality for our neighborhood and its families.

Because boundaries have not been redrawn since the 60s, everyone's current school has been their school for decades, unless their school was closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.

My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

And there is urgency in figuring this out because it takes time to change or create a school that will be an attractive alternative to Ward 3.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

If there are families EOTP like yours, zoned for Deal or not, that prefer to attend middle school EOTP, then those families should start meeting once a month over a bottle of wine (in person; nothing will ever get accomplished on DCUM!) and discussing which existing or new school they want to attend, and then work on it. Who knows, maybe it will become the most sought after school, as Jeff suggests, and we'll all be trying to get in OOB.

I'm in Petworth, not zoned for Deal or Wilson, and what we have is the worse alternative. I am positive that there are others in this area, currently or soon to be entering DCPS elementary schools, who don't want to be bothered with Deal/Wilson saga - and yes, we are meeting to discuss how we can build and rebuild a better MS and HS.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

Alternatively, we should assume that they know what to say to get re-elected. I really don't see the wisdom in building a school WotP that will be filled with kids from EotP while several recently-renovated EotP schools sit half empty. I'd rather spend that money doubling or tripling teacher and administrator salaries to attract the best talent nation-wide to the EotP schools.

Yes. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.
My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

16:47 again (not who you're responding to here). I appreciate the inclusive nature of an "additive" process, but it just won't work here IMHO. Few families will volunteer to pioneer a new EotP school. Most will just continue to fight like hell to get access to WotP schools, and will only switch after other families have put in lots of sweat equity to build the EotP schools. In essence, too many will free-ride.

I know it's incredibly unpopular, but I think the only way DCPS will get a new school to thrive will be to force strong communities to attend the school. To me, the strong communities poised to build such a school are will have committed parents, above-average income, and lots of racial diversity. The EotP neighborhoods like Mt Pleasant, 16th St Heights, Petworth, etc are the right ones to build a strong set of elementary/middle/high schools in their neighborhood. Again, I know it's unpopular, but I think they need to be pushed out of the Deal/Wilson nest, so they will fly. I also think those neighborhoods could get tons of extra support from DCPS if they volunteer to be zoned out of Deal/Wilson. They could get almost all the elements they want.

Except that if the student body becomes significantly whiter as a result, then you will have a Civil Rights lawsuit over disparate impact. And DCPS will lose. Again. (For those not in the know, that's EXACTLY what happened the last time DCPS lost a lawsuit because Wilson and Deal were too white.)

http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme/publication/attachments/Wash%20Post%20Articles%20on%20Zone%20Changes%20131026.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.
My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

16:47 again (not who you're responding to here). I appreciate the inclusive nature of an "additive" process, but it just won't work here IMHO. Few families will volunteer to pioneer a new EotP school. Most will just continue to fight like hell to get access to WotP schools, and will only switch after other families have put in lots of sweat equity to build the EotP schools. In essence, too many will free-ride.

I know it's incredibly unpopular, but I think the only way DCPS will get a new school to thrive will be to force strong communities to attend the school. To me, the strong communities poised to build such a school are will have committed parents, above-average income, and lots of racial diversity. The EotP neighborhoods like Mt Pleasant, 16th St Heights, Petworth, etc are the right ones to build a strong set of elementary/middle/high schools in their neighborhood. Again, I know it's unpopular, but I think they need to be pushed out of the Deal/Wilson nest, so they will fly. I also think those neighborhoods could get tons of extra support from DCPS if they volunteer to be zoned out of Deal/Wilson. They could get almost all the elements they want.

Except that if the student body becomes significantly whiter as a result, then you will have a Civil Rights lawsuit over disparate impact. And DCPS will lose. Again. (For those not in the know, that's EXACTLY what happened the last time DCPS lost a lawsuit because Wilson and Deal were too white.)

http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme/publication/attachments/Wash%20Post%20Articles%20on%20Zone%20Changes%20131026.pdf

Completely different situations. If the Deal/Wilson boundaries shrink today, there would be just as many white families screaming bloody murder as non-white families. That shows no race-based intent behind shrinking the boundaries. The non-race-based reason for the changes would be clear. Did you know that, today, Wilson only has around 22% white students? Shrinking the boundaries would likely be accompanied by set-asides for OOB students, who for the most part would not be white, thereby reducing any identifiable race-based impact. There's no race-based lawsuit possible anymore with respect to Wilson.

[Anonymous]

Except that if the student body becomes significantly whiter as a result, then you will have a Civil Rights lawsuit over disparate impact. And DCPS will lose. Again. (For those not in the know, that's EXACTLY what happened the last time DCPS lost a lawsuit because Wilson and Deal were too white.)
http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme...%20Zone%20Changes%20131026.pdf

Let me make sure I understand you. You first argue that if any change increases the percentage of white students at Deal/Wilson, then DCPS will lose a civil rights action. Then you argue that if any change increases the percentage of white students at an EotP school, that too will result in a civil rights lawsuit. So in essence, you think no change can occur which will alter the current racial balance at any school???

I think your grasp of the relevant civil rights law is suspect.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

Alternatively, we should assume that they know what to say to get re-elected. I really don't see the wisdom in building a school WotP that will be filled with kids from EotP while several recently-renovated EotP schools sit half empty. I'd rather spend that money doubling or tripling teacher and administrator salaries to attract the best talent nation-wide to the EotP schools.

The alternative then is to leave current Deal and Wilson boundaries alone and address future overcrowding by trimming OOB feeder rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

Alternatively, we should assume that they know what to say to get re-elected. I really don't see the wisdom in building a school WotP that will be filled with kids from EotP while several recently-renovated EotP schools sit half empty. I'd rather spend that money doubling or tripling teacher and administrator salaries to attract the best talent nation-wide to the EotP schools.

The alternative then is to leave current Deal and Wilson boundaries alone and address future overcrowding by trimming OOB feeder rights.

Ha! Good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both Jack Evans and Mary Cheh have supported building a new high school in the western part of the city. Evans suggested Ellington as the most obvious site but other DC owned sites could work. We should presume that they know the needs and wises of their constituents.

Alternatively, we should assume that they know what to say to get re-elected. I really don't see the wisdom in building a school WotP that will be filled with kids from EotP while several recently-renovated EotP schools sit half empty. I'd rather spend that money doubling or tripling teacher and administrator salaries to attract the best talent nation-wide to the EotP schools.

The alternative then is to leave current Deal and Wilson boundaries alone and address future overcrowding by trimming OOB feeder rights.

Ha! Good luck with that.

and good luck with getting any council support of changes that leave ward 2 and 3 families with lesser school choices than what exist today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I really wonder where a lot of these posters live, who are talking about "over-crowding" and offering purportedly well-meaning proposals of new MSs and HSs for those of us living in wards other than 3. I suspect many live in Ward 3, and thus would never be required to attend these brave new schools that they are proposing. But I can't know, because they don't disclose it.

I live in Ward 4 and also posted 18:47 above.
My bias is that I don't want to send my kid to Deal or Wilson, but that means we need better options EOTP.

Bancroft parent here, that's great, but it should be a voluntary process and an additive process (to borrow from Catania's lingo). I don't work for Catania but he sums it up best: no-one should be forced into a worse alternative than what they have today.

I don't know which posts you authored so this may not be responding to you, more to the posters who say hey, let's move the Deal/Wilson boundaries west to Rock Creek Parkway, that will solve it.

16:47 again (not who you're responding to here). I appreciate the inclusive nature of an "additive" process, but it just won't work here IMHO. Few families will volunteer to pioneer a new EotP school. Most will just continue to fight like hell to get access to WotP schools, and will only switch after other families have put in lots of sweat equity to build the EotP schools. In essence, too many will free-ride.

I know it's incredibly unpopular, but I think the only way DCPS will get a new school to thrive will be to force strong communities to attend the school. To me, the strong communities poised to build such a school are will have committed parents, above-average income, and lots of racial diversity. The EotP neighborhoods like Mt Pleasant, 16th St Heights, Petworth, etc are the right ones to build a strong set of elementary/middle/high schools in their neighborhood. Again, I know it's unpopular, but I think they need to be pushed out of the Deal/Wilson nest, so they will fly. I also think those neighborhoods could get tons of extra support from DCPS if they volunteer to be zoned out of Deal/Wilson. They could get almost all the elements they want.

Except that if the student body becomes significantly whiter as a result, then you will have a Civil Rights lawsuit over disparate impact. And DCPS will lose. Again. (For those not in the know, that's EXACTLY what happened the last time DCPS lost a lawsuit because Wilson and Deal were too white.)

http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme/publication/attachments/Wash%20Post%20Articles%20on%20Zone%20Changes%20131026.pdf

Completely different situations. If the Deal/Wilson boundaries shrink today, there would be just as many white families screaming bloody murder as non-white families. That shows no race-based intent behind shrinking the boundaries. The non-race-based reason for the changes would be clear. Did you know that, today, Wilson only has around 22% white students? Shrinking the boundaries would likely be accompanied by set-asides for OOB students, who for the most part would not be white, thereby reducing any identifiable race-based impact. There's no race-based lawsuit possible anymore with respect to Wilson.

Unless Hardy is the school cut out - in which case the impact disproportionately falls on a student body that is 80% AA/Hispanic.