IB Programs

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:One thing I don’t like about writing in IB is it’s emphasis on volume. All assignments come with a word count requirement, which creates an incentive for a verbose if not rambling style of writing.

AP courses have a more varied style and tend put more emphasis on structure. IB writing is more of a one size fits all, with a lot of writing but very similar approach and content. You get the obligatory “what do we know and how do we know it”, “it could be this because of that, or an alternative because of something else”. To some this passes as “analytical writing”, but it doesn’t always work. Its great for a major in medieval French comparative literature, it falls short for a lab report or economics paper. Because of all this you see IB papers on math and science with atrocious first person narrative stylistic choices. For what is worth a lab report in AP chemistry will look like a lab report with proper organization and concise and to the point style.

Most of the writing style in college is actually closer to AP than IB.

People talk about writing writing writing. Talk about other aspects of IB. For example, write about how AP Bio is compared to IB Bio. AP Bio is double period so labs are done in one of the periods. Is it too much info crammed into one year? IB Bio is over two years so are labs spread out, or is there a dedicated day each week for labs, or does it vary? How about level of difficulty in AP versus IB? All the threads on IB only seem to talk about the writing. Ok most readers get it, there's "more" writing and writing is "different" in AP.

People always bring up how good IB is in writing, look up thread. Personally I think writing in IB is one of the most overrated aspects.

I’d summarize it as quantity over quality and one size fits all.

Internal assessments in math and sciences are are some of the worst. Do you need to write 20 pages document as part of your math assessment? Sorry but no, it might be useful in English and history, not in math and sciences. These are busy work time sinks pretentiously called “analytical writing” and “research”, while the fundamentals aren’t even covered properly.

Far more useful is to teach how to write a one page mathematical proof and a lab report instead of rambling over pages after pages. That’s not good preparation for college!

lol.. kind of.. but the point of IB is to think critically, reflect, and write analytical papers.

As I stated up thread, a lot of the RMIB magnet kids I know are actually STEM majors now in college. They can churn out high quality papers very quickly in college. At least IB taught them that, if nothing else.

I guess quantity over quality is better than nothing.

There is demand for writing intensive classes, guess the AP class with highest growth? AP seminar with a whopping 30% year over year growth, which can also be substituted for 10th grade English. It’s in track to overtake the number of IB diploma candidates this year.

In our neck of the woods only the Catholic high school offers Seminar and research, I hope it will change in the future.

Not correct. Last year, more than 10 MCPS HS offered the English 10 version of AP Seminar.

[Anonymous]

IB is not the pinnacle of learning how to write. It can be effectively done in AP classes in STEM, humanities and Capstone, arguably better because it’s more varied in style and emphasizes structure.

The features that truly set IB apart are mostly negatives: the inflexible 6 course package deal, poor alignment with high school and college classes, weak curriculum, limited college credit, busywork CAS, faux academic classes like ToK etc.

For some bizarre reason when these shortcomings are pointed out the IB cheerleaders come out of the woodwork bringing up the IBO marketing points of “college was easy by comparison to high school”, lol seriously? Pick a different major or college. Or demonstrably false statements like “big bump for ivy admissions” or “it’s the most rigorous college preparation” etc.

In short it’s an ok program with a lot of hype surrounding it. It’s roughly equivalent to taking 4-5 AP classes. For the vast majority of students AP or DE is a better fit. For the very top students it makes more sense to load up on advanced coursework. At the low end DE is a better fit because of guaranteed transfer credit that’s easier to get. So IB is fine for the middle of the pack student that hasn’t found a strong interest yet and wants a more rounded education.

There’s a caveat related to magnets, because often the aforementioned IB cheerleaders conflate the experience at RMIB with the rigor at the generic IB high school. Even in this thread they deceptively list classes like AP Calculus BC (hilarious!) and “IB Multivariable” as examples of IB classes. If you’re one of the kids that got into RMIB, it’s probably worth it. Among magnets the perception is that Blair is better likely because of some of the above considerations.

[Anonymous]

I think what really appeals to me about magnets like RMIB is the ability to take challenged gong coursework in 9th and 10th grade. It appears that magnet students have separate sections and a more challenging curriculum for 9th and 10th grade English and Science. That is really great. I wish that our assigned school (B-CC) would fo that. Instead, they only offer honors English and honors biology (though it looks like chemistry has two levels). There are no longer ore-IB classes, and there is no on-level course for English and biology. The core MCPS curriculum is so weak that I really worry about my kids falling behind in writing and iterate analysis skills. That’s why I will encourage them to apply to RMIB and maybe some other magnets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is not the pinnacle of learning how to write. It can be effectively done in AP classes in STEM, humanities and Capstone, arguably better because it’s more varied in style and emphasizes structure.

The features that truly set IB apart are mostly negatives: the inflexible 6 course package deal, poor alignment with high school and college classes, weak curriculum, limited college credit, busywork CAS, faux academic classes like ToK etc.

For some bizarre reason when these shortcomings are pointed out the IB cheerleaders come out of the woodwork bringing up the IBO marketing points of “college was easy by comparison to high school”, lol seriously? Pick a different major or college. Or demonstrably false statements like “big bump for ivy admissions” or “it’s the most rigorous college preparation” etc.

In short it’s an ok program with a lot of hype surrounding it. It’s roughly equivalent to taking 4-5 AP classes. For the vast majority of students AP or DE is a better fit. For the very top students it makes more sense to load up on advanced coursework. At the low end DE is a better fit because of guaranteed transfer credit that’s easier to get. So IB is fine for the middle of the pack student that hasn’t found a strong interest yet and wants a more rounded education.

There’s a caveat related to magnets, because often the aforementioned IB cheerleaders conflate the experience at RMIB with the rigor at the generic IB high school. Even in this thread they deceptively list classes like AP Calculus BC (hilarious!) and “IB Multivariable” as examples of IB classes. If you’re one of the kids that got into RMIB, it’s probably worth it. Among magnets the perception is that Blair is better likely because of some of the above considerations.

Some of us are able to have discussions about pros and cons of AP and IB and some are so wedded to their views that they make over broad and under supported statements like these.

[Anonymous]

In our experience, IB has been great for a strong but shy student who appreciates the social experience of navigating high school in a tight-knit, readymade peer group, the closest experience in public school to a private school. Yes, the 6-course pack is something of a drag. We roll with it because it comes with a group of peers taking most of the same fairly rigorous classes for four years. In a giant public high school, you can't put a price on an IB peer group. These are teens who accrue the benefit of both social and academic inputs. Rather than denigrate IB like the poster above, it pays to think more broadly about what the program offers students who are a particularly good fit for it. Fact is, no shortage of those "middle of the road" IBD grads at Ivies, top tech programs and all manner of elite universities around the world.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

That depends on the local high school and teacher. College board gives a lot more latitude on course content and organization than IB. You don’t need to teach a prescribed syllabus, you only need to pass the course audit. Magnets generally teach the real deal college level.

Two semesters for Calculus 1 and 2 is standard, that wouldn’t be considered crammed. Supposedly AP is for students that can handle college classes in high school, not for ones that need a watered down, in between, course version. The truth is that it varies, that’s why we have AP Calculus AB, which is about 3/4 of Calculus BC, or AP Statistics which is taught over one year in high school but over one semester in college. The redeeming quality is that the AP classes align well with college classes and its easy to decide what you’ve mastered and what to take next.

IB HL AA suffers from the same shortcomings and more, not really a college class, but a mix of advanced and basic topics put together under the same label. Sometimes you see it getting credit for a combination of Calculus 1 and/or Statistics, but it’s not comparable with either. Occasionally you see people jumping straight into Multivariable after HL AA which is ill advised.

This is somewhat misleading. The College Board doesn't dictate what happens day by day (and for English classes, doesn't dictate specific books, poems, etc.), but the Course Audit does dictate the objectives in a detailed way: 2.2 Defining the Derivative of a Function and Using Derivative Notation
1.D Identify an appropriate mathematical rule or procedure based on the relationship between concepts (e.g., rate of change
and accumulation) or processes (e.g., differentiation and its inverse process, anti-differentiation) to solve problems.
4.C Use appropriate mathematical symbols and notation (e.g., Represent a derivative using
f ′(x), y′, and dy/dx

What’s misleading about that? You can’t make up any course and slap the AP Calculus label on it. There’s far more flexibility in setting up an AP course than IB. You can even follow the MIT OCW class if you’d like. You can use open source textbooks from OpenStax, have them in electronic format if there’s not a lot of money available. There’s student support across many platforms like YouTube and third party preparation materials like Barrons, there’s a myriad of resources to support students in AP classes.

You can’t do that with IB, you have to follow their material, textbook and curriculum, which is not very good. If there’s something you didn’t understand in class you’re on your own. Good luck trying to get familiarized with the test format and types of questions, you’ll figure it out at the exam. Add to that the high barrier of entry, lack of flexibility in choosing courses, diploma graduation rates, the high cost per student etc.

Maybe the reason it’s so hard to score high on IB exams is that it’s not a very effective program.

The PP was arguing that not all AP classes would learn the theorems because "it depended on the teacher." I was making the point that the Course Audit is pretty specific about the content that needs to be covered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In our experience, IB has been great for a strong but shy student who appreciates the social experience of navigating high school in a tight-knit, readymade peer group, the closest experience in public school to a private school. Yes, the 6-course pack is something of a drag. We roll with it because it comes with a group of peers taking most of the same fairly rigorous classes for four years. In a giant public high school, you can't put a price on an IB peer group. These are teens who accrue the benefit of both social and academic inputs. Rather than denigrate IB like the poster above, it pays to think more broadly about what the program offers students who are a particularly good fit for it. Fact is, no shortage of those "middle of the road" IBD grads at Ivies, top tech programs and all manner of elite universities around the world.

So now the strength of the IB program is the peer group? That’s very dependent on the school cohort, go to a magnet if that’s what you care for. There’s self selection in AP classes too.

Please with the “Ivy admission”. It happens at RMIB for a handful of the 100 admitted students, that are part of the magnet (strong peer cohort) and have access to different coursework.

That’s not representative of the typical IB program. In fact for students relying exclusively on IB don’t do “ivy” in admissions, just on par with the students taking 4-5 AP’s and I’m not looking down on these outcomes.

It’s not denigration to point the shortcomings of IB to prospective students and their parents.

[Anonymous]

selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

The OP was asking about IB Programs, not about RMIB specifically, where kids do AP Calculus BC in 10th grade and take over 5
AP’s on average in addition to the IBD.

Now do Blair magnet, which is a more apt comparison. Similar cohort, but far more rigorous curriculum, and also better college admissions outcomes. That’s if you want to keeps the discussion centered on magnets.

Really curious on why some of these posters are so invested in deceiving others about how great the IB programs are. Pretending RMIB is representative for generic IB programs is simply dishonest. Great if your kid went there and did well but don’t make it seem like RMIB and Kennedy are the the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

The OP was asking about IB Programs, not about RMIB specifically, where kids do AP Calculus BC in 10th grade and take over 5
AP’s on average in addition to the IBD.

Now do Blair magnet, which is a more apt comparison. Similar cohort, but far more rigorous curriculum, and also better college admissions outcomes. That’s if you want to keeps the discussion centered on magnets.

Really curious on why some of these posters are so invested in deceiving others about how great the IB programs are. Pretending RMIB is representative for generic IB programs is simply dishonest. Great if your kid went there and did well but don’t make it seem like RMIB and Kennedy are the the same.

Are you sure? According to this list, approximately 1/3 of RMIB class went to top 10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

List is made up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

The OP was asking about IB Programs, not about RMIB specifically, where kids do AP Calculus BC in 10th grade and take over 5
AP’s on average in addition to the IBD.

Now do Blair magnet, which is a more apt comparison. Similar cohort, but far more rigorous curriculum, and also better college admissions outcomes. That’s if you want to keeps the discussion centered on magnets.

Really curious on why some of these posters are so invested in deceiving others about how great the IB programs are. Pretending RMIB is representative for generic IB programs is simply dishonest. Great if your kid went there and did well but don’t make it seem like RMIB and Kennedy are the the same.

Are you sure? According to this list, approximately 1/3 of RMIB class went to top 10.

According to the list you made up this morning?

Your top 10 list is made up of 14 colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

List is made up.

Obviously! How weird do you have to be to make this stuff up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

List is made up.

Obviously! How weird do you have to be to make this stuff up?

The list is loosely based on RM instagram college commitments but she posts it as RMIB. Not everybody posts, and most of these kids are not IBD. For sure that not 1/3 of the RMIB class goes to top 10. Bizarre why people make this up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:selected RMIB class of 2024 college attending

Brown (4)
Columbia (3)
Cornell (9)
duke (3)
Georgetown (6)
harvard (2)
MIT (2)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Chicago (4)
Penn (1)
Yale (2)
Northwestern (1)
Princeton (2)
Stanford (1)

List is made up.

Obviously! How weird do you have to be to make this stuff up?

The list is loosely based on RM instagram college commitments but she posts it as RMIB. Not everybody posts, and most of these kids are not IBD. For sure that not 1/3 of the RMIB class goes to top 10. Bizarre why people make this up.

I am the PP who posted the list. I copied the numbers from the flyer we were given at RMIB 8th grade open house. So these are official numbers as advertised by the RMIB program. They gave us the numbers for the 3 most recent years. The numbers for the other 2 years are similarly impressive but college distribution is different. "1/3 goes to top 10" is my rough estimation.