IB Programs

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the foreign language component is that hard. My daughter got. 6/7 on French, and I don’t think her French is great.

My DD is wrapping up HL French this year, and isn’t finding it difficult, either.

She’s learned enough to be fairly conversational when we were in Montreal this summer, at least. Navigated the city with ease, chatted with servers.

We’ll see how the exams go, but so far she hasn’t found the prep too challenging.

What year of French is this in MCPS? 6 or 7? (It looks like some school offer it through level 7.) That may make a difference as to how easy/hard it is.

At our school AP level is French 5 (the 5th year of French). 7 years is a lot of French, do you start in 6th grade? At our school kids that are not into foreign language just do 1 & 2.

So people are taking AP French in sophmore year? That seems early. It seems at most schools like it is junior year, which would be the 6th year. But I'm confused because MCPS offers 7 years of French language. If AP is in the 5th or 6th year, what are they teaching after that?

Some kids take AP foreign language in middle school and they are done with the foreign language requirement. They make room for other electives if they choose to. I’d guess most of them are native speakers or come from immersion schools. College Board had some statistics, about ten thousand students take AP exams in middle school, it’s mostly Spanish.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

That depends on the local high school and teacher. College board gives a lot more latitude on course content and organization than IB. You don’t need to teach a prescribed syllabus, you only need to pass the course audit. Magnets generally teach the real deal college level.

Two semesters for Calculus 1 and 2 is standard, that wouldn’t be considered crammed. Supposedly AP is for students that can handle college classes in high school, not for ones that need a watered down, in between, course version. The truth is that it varies, that’s why we have AP Calculus AB, which is about 3/4 of Calculus BC, or AP Statistics which is taught over one year in high school but over one semester in college. The redeeming quality is that the AP classes align well with college classes and its easy to decide what you’ve mastered and what to take next.

IB HL AA suffers from the same shortcomings and more, not really a college class, but a mix of advanced and basic topics put together under the same label. Sometimes you see it getting credit for a combination of Calculus 1 and/or Statistics, but it’s not comparable with either. Occasionally you see people jumping straight into Multivariable after HL AA which is ill advised.

This is somewhat misleading. The College Board doesn't dictate what happens day by day (and for English classes, doesn't dictate specific books, poems, etc.), but the Course Audit does dictate the objectives in a detailed way: 2.2 Defining the Derivative of a Function and Using Derivative Notation
1.D Identify an appropriate mathematical rule or procedure based on the relationship between concepts (e.g., rate of change
and accumulation) or processes (e.g., differentiation and its inverse process, anti-differentiation) to solve problems.
4.C Use appropriate mathematical symbols and notation (e.g., Represent a derivative using
f ′(x), y′, and dy/dx

What’s misleading about that? You can’t make up any course and slap the AP Calculus label on it. There’s far more flexibility in setting up an AP course than IB. You can even follow the MIT OCW class if you’d like. You can use open source textbooks from OpenStax, have them in electronic format if there’s not a lot of money available. There’s student support across many platforms like YouTube and third party preparation materials like Barrons, there’s a myriad of resources to support students in AP classes.

You can’t do that with IB, you have to follow their material, textbook and curriculum, which is not very good. If there’s something you didn’t understand in class you’re on your own. Good luck trying to get familiarized with the test format and types of questions, you’ll figure it out at the exam. Add to that the high barrier of entry, lack of flexibility in choosing courses, diploma graduation rates, the high cost per student etc.

Maybe the reason it’s so hard to score high on IB exams is that it’s not a very effective program.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

That depends on the local high school and teacher. College board gives a lot more latitude on course content and organization than IB. You don’t need to teach a prescribed syllabus, you only need to pass the course audit. Magnets generally teach the real deal college level.

Two semesters for Calculus 1 and 2 is standard, that wouldn’t be considered crammed. Supposedly AP is for students that can handle college classes in high school, not for ones that need a watered down, in between, course version. The truth is that it varies, that’s why we have AP Calculus AB, which is about 3/4 of Calculus BC, or AP Statistics which is taught over one year in high school but over one semester in college. The redeeming quality is that the AP classes align well with college classes and its easy to decide what you’ve mastered and what to take next.

IB HL AA suffers from the same shortcomings and more, not really a college class, but a mix of advanced and basic topics put together under the same label. Sometimes you see it getting credit for a combination of Calculus 1 and/or Statistics, but it’s not comparable with either. Occasionally you see people jumping straight into Multivariable after HL AA which is ill advised.

This is somewhat misleading. The College Board doesn't dictate what happens day by day (and for English classes, doesn't dictate specific books, poems, etc.), but the Course Audit does dictate the objectives in a detailed way: 2.2 Defining the Derivative of a Function and Using Derivative Notation
1.D Identify an appropriate mathematical rule or procedure based on the relationship between concepts (e.g., rate of change
and accumulation) or processes (e.g., differentiation and its inverse process, anti-differentiation) to solve problems.
4.C Use appropriate mathematical symbols and notation (e.g., Represent a derivative using
f ′(x), y′, and dy/dx

What’s misleading about that? You can’t make up any course and slap the AP Calculus label on it. There’s far more flexibility in setting up an AP course than IB. You can even follow the MIT OCW class if you’d like. You can use open source textbooks from OpenStax, have them in electronic format if there’s not a lot of money available. There’s student support across many platforms like YouTube and third party preparation materials like Barrons, there’s a myriad of resources to support students in AP classes.

You can’t do that with IB, you have to follow their material, textbook and curriculum, which is not very good. If there’s something you didn’t understand in class you’re on your own. Good luck trying to get familiarized with the test format and types of questions, you’ll figure it out at the exam. Add to that the high barrier of entry, lack of flexibility in choosing courses, diploma graduation rates, the high cost per student etc.

Maybe the reason it’s so hard to score high on IB exams is that it’s not a very effective program.

Goodness. Why do you talk about something you know nothing about? How many of your kids went thru IB? 0?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the foreign language component is that hard. My daughter got. 6/7 on French, and I don’t think her French is great.

My DD is wrapping up HL French this year, and isn’t finding it difficult, either.

She’s learned enough to be fairly conversational when we were in Montreal this summer, at least. Navigated the city with ease, chatted with servers.

We’ll see how the exams go, but so far she hasn’t found the prep too challenging.

I don’t like how much emphasis IB puts in foreign language. If you’re immersed at home then because your parents are first generation immigrants you’ll do well. Or if your parents afford the French au-pair, language camps, European trips, tutoring etc. Elitism at its finest.

DC had no background in French, completed AP French in 11th, took the IB exam, earned the Seal of Biliteracy, and was done. No tutors, no camps, no travel to a French-speaking country. Not taking a language in 12th to focus on another elective but found it to be a positive experience overall, and not burdensome in terms of hw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the foreign language component is that hard. My daughter got. 6/7 on French, and I don’t think her French is great.

My DD is wrapping up HL French this year, and isn’t finding it difficult, either.

She’s learned enough to be fairly conversational when we were in Montreal this summer, at least. Navigated the city with ease, chatted with servers.

We’ll see how the exams go, but so far she hasn’t found the prep too challenging.

I don’t like how much emphasis IB puts in foreign language. If you’re immersed at home then because your parents are first generation immigrants you’ll do well. Or if your parents afford the French au-pair, language camps, European trips, tutoring etc. Elitism at its finest.

DC had no background in French, completed AP French in 11th, took the IB exam, earned the Seal of Biliteracy, and was done. No tutors, no camps, no travel to a French-speaking country. Not taking a language in 12th to focus on another elective but found it to be a positive experience overall, and not burdensome in terms of hw.

+1. My kid had no background or tutors but did fine and kept up with Spanish in college.

Plus it’s bizarre to argue it’s elitist while simultaneously arguing it’s all immigrant kids. Just more whining.

[Anonymous]

IB is busywork.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the foreign language component is that hard. My daughter got. 6/7 on French, and I don’t think her French is great.

My DD is wrapping up HL French this year, and isn’t finding it difficult, either.

She’s learned enough to be fairly conversational when we were in Montreal this summer, at least. Navigated the city with ease, chatted with servers.

We’ll see how the exams go, but so far she hasn’t found the prep too challenging.

I don’t like how much emphasis IB puts in foreign language. If you’re immersed at home then because your parents are first generation immigrants you’ll do well. Or if your parents afford the French au-pair, language camps, European trips, tutoring etc. Elitism at its finest.

DC had no background in French, completed AP French in 11th, took the IB exam, earned the Seal of Biliteracy, and was done. No tutors, no camps, no travel to a French-speaking country. Not taking a language in 12th to focus on another elective but found it to be a positive experience overall, and not burdensome in terms of hw.

RMIB program requires kids to take the biliteracy exam. DC took it in 10th grade for Spanish. We are not native speakers. Their home language is only English. They also took the IB Spanish exam, which included an oral piece to it, and got a 7. Their IB Spanish teacher, who is Spanish, asked my DC if they were a native Spanish speaker, which DC is not.

That said, I think some kids are just good with languages and some aren't. DC is a dual STEM major now in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is busywork.

lol.. yea, my DC said the kids call IB "I B*llsh*t". But, it did make DC a much stronger writer, and force them to think more analytically. DC even admits that.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:One thing I don’t like about writing in IB is it’s emphasis on volume. All assignments come with a word count requirement, which creates an incentive for a verbose if not rambling style of writing.

AP courses have a more varied style and tend put more emphasis on structure. IB writing is more of a one size fits all, with a lot of writing but very similar approach and content. You get the obligatory “what do we know and how do we know it”, “it could be this because of that, or an alternative because of something else”. To some this passes as “analytical writing”, but it doesn’t always work. Its great for a major in medieval French comparative literature, it falls short for a lab report or economics paper. Because of all this you see IB papers on math and science with atrocious first person narrative stylistic choices. For what is worth a lab report in AP chemistry will look like a lab report with proper organization and concise and to the point style.

Most of the writing style in college is actually closer to AP than IB.

People talk about writing writing writing. Talk about other aspects of IB. For example, write about how AP Bio is compared to IB Bio. AP Bio is double period so labs are done in one of the periods. Is it too much info crammed into one year? IB Bio is over two years so are labs spread out, or is there a dedicated day each week for labs, or does it vary? How about level of difficulty in AP versus IB? All the threads on IB only seem to talk about the writing. Ok most readers get it, there's "more" writing and writing is "different" in AP.

People always bring up how good IB is in writing, look up thread. Personally I think writing in IB is one of the most overrated aspects.

I’d summarize it as quantity over quality and one size fits all.

Internal assessments in math and sciences are are some of the worst. Do you need to write 20 pages document as part of your math assessment? Sorry but no, it might be useful in English and history, not in math and sciences. These are busy work time sinks pretentiously called “analytical writing” and “research”, while the fundamentals aren’t even covered properly.

Far more useful is to teach how to write a one page mathematical proof and a lab report instead of rambling over pages after pages. That’s not good preparation for college!

lol.. kind of.. but the point of IB is to think critically, reflect, and write analytical papers.

As I stated up thread, a lot of the RMIB magnet kids I know are actually STEM majors now in college. They can churn out high quality papers very quickly in college. At least IB taught them that, if nothing else.

[Anonymous]

I think writing and analysis skills are the most valuable skills and the hardest to teach, esp in public schools with larger class sizes.

I do think IB has more focus on those skills and that it’s worth doing for some kids, but I also admit that there is some busywork and it’s not right for every kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing I don’t like about writing in IB is it’s emphasis on volume. All assignments come with a word count requirement, which creates an incentive for a verbose if not rambling style of writing.

AP courses have a more varied style and tend put more emphasis on structure. IB writing is more of a one size fits all, with a lot of writing but very similar approach and content. You get the obligatory “what do we know and how do we know it”, “it could be this because of that, or an alternative because of something else”. To some this passes as “analytical writing”, but it doesn’t always work. Its great for a major in medieval French comparative literature, it falls short for a lab report or economics paper. Because of all this you see IB papers on math and science with atrocious first person narrative stylistic choices. For what is worth a lab report in AP chemistry will look like a lab report with proper organization and concise and to the point style.

Most of the writing style in college is actually closer to AP than IB.

People talk about writing writing writing. Talk about other aspects of IB. For example, write about how AP Bio is compared to IB Bio. AP Bio is double period so labs are done in one of the periods. Is it too much info crammed into one year? IB Bio is over two years so are labs spread out, or is there a dedicated day each week for labs, or does it vary? How about level of difficulty in AP versus IB? All the threads on IB only seem to talk about the writing. Ok most readers get it, there's "more" writing and writing is "different" in AP.

People always bring up how good IB is in writing, look up thread. Personally I think writing in IB is one of the most overrated aspects.

I’d summarize it as quantity over quality and one size fits all.

Internal assessments in math and sciences are are some of the worst. Do you need to write 20 pages document as part of your math assessment? Sorry but no, it might be useful in English and history, not in math and sciences. These are busy work time sinks pretentiously called “analytical writing” and “research”, while the fundamentals aren’t even covered properly.

Far more useful is to teach how to write a one page mathematical proof and a lab report instead of rambling over pages after pages. That’s not good preparation for college!

lol.. kind of.. but the point of IB is to think critically, reflect, and write analytical papers.

As I stated up thread, a lot of the RMIB magnet kids I know are actually STEM majors now in college. They can churn out high quality papers very quickly in college. At least IB taught them that, if nothing else.

I guess quantity over quality is better than nothing.

There is demand for writing intensive classes, guess the AP class with highest growth? AP seminar with a whopping 30% year over year growth, which can also be substituted for 10th grade English. It’s in track to overtake the number of IB diploma candidates this year.

In our neck of the woods only the Catholic high school offers Seminar and research, I hope it will change in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing I don’t like about writing in IB is it’s emphasis on volume. All assignments come with a word count requirement, which creates an incentive for a verbose if not rambling style of writing.

AP courses have a more varied style and tend put more emphasis on structure. IB writing is more of a one size fits all, with a lot of writing but very similar approach and content. You get the obligatory “what do we know and how do we know it”, “it could be this because of that, or an alternative because of something else”. To some this passes as “analytical writing”, but it doesn’t always work. Its great for a major in medieval French comparative literature, it falls short for a lab report or economics paper. Because of all this you see IB papers on math and science with atrocious first person narrative stylistic choices. For what is worth a lab report in AP chemistry will look like a lab report with proper organization and concise and to the point style.

Most of the writing style in college is actually closer to AP than IB.

People talk about writing writing writing. Talk about other aspects of IB. For example, write about how AP Bio is compared to IB Bio. AP Bio is double period so labs are done in one of the periods. Is it too much info crammed into one year? IB Bio is over two years so are labs spread out, or is there a dedicated day each week for labs, or does it vary? How about level of difficulty in AP versus IB? All the threads on IB only seem to talk about the writing. Ok most readers get it, there's "more" writing and writing is "different" in AP.

People always bring up how good IB is in writing, look up thread. Personally I think writing in IB is one of the most overrated aspects.

I’d summarize it as quantity over quality and one size fits all.

Internal assessments in math and sciences are are some of the worst. Do you need to write 20 pages document as part of your math assessment? Sorry but no, it might be useful in English and history, not in math and sciences. These are busy work time sinks pretentiously called “analytical writing” and “research”, while the fundamentals aren’t even covered properly.

Far more useful is to teach how to write a one page mathematical proof and a lab report instead of rambling over pages after pages. That’s not good preparation for college!

lol.. kind of.. but the point of IB is to think critically, reflect, and write analytical papers.

As I stated up thread, a lot of the RMIB magnet kids I know are actually STEM majors now in college. They can churn out high quality papers very quickly in college. At least IB taught them that, if nothing else.

I guess quantity over quality is better than nothing.

There is demand for writing intensive classes, guess the AP class with highest growth? AP seminar with a whopping 30% year over year growth, which can also be substituted for 10th grade English. It’s in track to overtake the number of IB diploma candidates this year.

In our neck of the woods only the Catholic high school offers Seminar and research, I hope it will change in the future.

? IB writing requires quality, as well as quantity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing I don’t like about writing in IB is it’s emphasis on volume. All assignments come with a word count requirement, which creates an incentive for a verbose if not rambling style of writing.

AP courses have a more varied style and tend put more emphasis on structure. IB writing is more of a one size fits all, with a lot of writing but very similar approach and content. You get the obligatory “what do we know and how do we know it”, “it could be this because of that, or an alternative because of something else”. To some this passes as “analytical writing”, but it doesn’t always work. Its great for a major in medieval French comparative literature, it falls short for a lab report or economics paper. Because of all this you see IB papers on math and science with atrocious first person narrative stylistic choices. For what is worth a lab report in AP chemistry will look like a lab report with proper organization and concise and to the point style.

Most of the writing style in college is actually closer to AP than IB.

People talk about writing writing writing. Talk about other aspects of IB. For example, write about how AP Bio is compared to IB Bio. AP Bio is double period so labs are done in one of the periods. Is it too much info crammed into one year? IB Bio is over two years so are labs spread out, or is there a dedicated day each week for labs, or does it vary? How about level of difficulty in AP versus IB? All the threads on IB only seem to talk about the writing. Ok most readers get it, there's "more" writing and writing is "different" in AP.

Excellent points. I teach an IB science course and am envious that the AP courses get double period. Regardless of having two years for IB versus the one year for AP, it is extremely difficult to do some of our labs in one period, and limits the labs that we can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think writing and analysis skills are the most valuable skills and the hardest to teach, esp in public schools with larger class sizes.

I do think IB has more focus on those skills and that it’s worth doing for some kids, but I also admit that there is some busywork and it’s not right for every kid.

I teach IB English. There isn’t any busywork in my course; I simply don’t have time for that.

Each assessment is an essay, which occurs about every 3 weeks. I assign no multiple choice, no worksheets, etc. Other assignments are process pieces (essay revisions) or small oral examinations to prepare for their 15-minute IO (individual oral).

By graduation, these students can write and they can verbally defend an argument.

I’m such a fan of the program that I encouraged my own child to do IB. She started college with enough credits to skip 1.5 semesters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think writing and analysis skills are the most valuable skills and the hardest to teach, esp in public schools with larger class sizes.

I do think IB has more focus on those skills and that it’s worth doing for some kids, but I also admit that there is some busywork and it’s not right for every kid.

I teach IB English. There isn’t any busywork in my course; I simply don’t have time for that.

Each assessment is an essay, which occurs about every 3 weeks. I assign no multiple choice, no worksheets, etc. Other assignments are process pieces (essay revisions) or small oral examinations to prepare for their 15-minute IO (individual oral).

By graduation, these students can write and they can verbally defend an argument.

I’m such a fan of the program that I encouraged my own child to do IB. She started college with enough credits to skip 1.5 semesters.

Oh I didn’t mean IB english has busy work— I just meant the stuff that’s not coursework that you need to do for the diploma, but admittedly I don’t think has to take a lot of time.