Downtown DC is a storefront ghost

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

There’s no “gotcha” about you having no idea what you’re talking about.

[Anonymous]

With parking issues and delivery for a lot of things it’s more of a hassle than it’s worth. It’s very costly to convert the buildings to housing. The buildings priced themselves too high and few can afford it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

NP here. The upscale City Center retail neighborhood (downtown) is thriving and doing better post pandemic, according to the Washington Post. Its convenient underground parking garage is heavily used, and there is direct access to the 9th Street Tunnel / SW SE Freeway. City Center also benefits from proximity to the Metro Center station, proximity to high end hotels, the convention center, offices, high end residential, and of course, density and walkability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

This is easily the dumbest attempt ive ever seen someone use to try and dismiss an argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s nowhere to park downtown anymore. Easier to just go to the suburbs if I need something

When was the time you could just cruise up to wherever you wanted to go downtown and park in front of it?

Yeah, that’s kinda the point. Never. Maybe the Cleveland Park Park-n-shop? But that’s about it.

And this morning, I drove right up and parked in front of my local hardware store, Safeway, Starbucks, the lacrosse store, the bike shop, and Petsmart. Which you can do in the ‘burbs. Which is what they were designed for.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

This is easily the dumbest attempt ive ever seen someone use to try and dismiss an argument.

You’ve said fundamentally dumb things that both underscore your fundamental ignorance of the city but also directly undermine the central argument of the thread - which is presumably that downtown DC needs housing to thrive.

Apparently it just needs housing 10 minutes walking away. But wait, it already has that….

You’re a mess.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

DP, but even though I don't consider Union Market NoMa, I agree with everything else the PP says.

I have been confused in recent years when people have started referring to areas on NE as NoMa. I always understood the neighborhood to be the area north of Mass Ave (thus "NoMa") in NW, east of Mt. Vernon square. So the strip of high rise apartments and mixed use development clustered along K Street between North Capitol and 7th, NW. At some point people started referring to the area north of Union Station, in NE, this way as well. This doesn't make sense to me because this neighborhood is too far from Mass Ave to sensibly be called NoMa, but now so many people refer to the neighborhood with the Harris Teeter that way that I have accepted it. That people are now extending this to include Union Market makes even less sense to me -- I'd sooner consider Union Market part of the H Street area, or "Near Northeast" than NoMa. But I feel like I am losing this battle as I regularly hear people call the New York Avenue metro stop (which is also the closest stop to Union Market) "NoMa" so oh well.

But regardless, the PP is totally spot on with everything else. Union Market and the Wharf both have tons of housing and the goal is walkability and dense development, with minimal street parking. I think people get confused because when neighborhoods like this develop, there is often a grace period where there is good stuff to do/see there but street parking is plentiful (because the neighborhood is still underdeveloped). But that time ends. It's already ended with the Wharf, where parking is expensive and close to expensive. It's also happened in Navy Yard, where except during weekdays during the day outside of baseball season, parking is extremely hard. And it is in the process of happening in Union Market, though still transitioning.

People are going to complain so hard when that lot next to Union Market itself gets razed and they build another high rise building there. But it's going to happen, probably within the next year. You can pay $40 for parking or take an Uber.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

This is easily the dumbest attempt ive ever seen someone use to try and dismiss an argument.

You’ve said fundamentally dumb things that both underscore your fundamental ignorance of the city but also directly undermine the central argument of the thread - which is presumably that downtown DC needs housing to thrive.

Apparently it just needs housing 10 minutes walking away. But wait, it already has that….

You’re a mess.

That was the first thing I've posted on this thread, but I hope you feel better getting that off of your chest. It is literally a 9 min walk from Noma metro to union market. Who cares what someone refers to the neighborhood as

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s nowhere to park downtown anymore. Easier to just go to the suburbs if I need something

Park in a garage and use your feet. Or cruise around for 5-10 minutes until you find a meter parking. Or even better, don't do any of that and just take the freaking metro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

Union Market is literally right next to NOMA, if not “in” NOMA. You’re being totally absurd and using the tiniest quibble about how neighborhoods are named to claim a victory in an argument about something larger than that. The reason it was brought up was due to the claim that there is “no housing” near the Wharf and Union Market, in order to make a point that they are dying retail because they don’t cater to drivers, which is a obviously wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s nowhere to park downtown anymore. Easier to just go to the suburbs if I need something

When was the time you could just cruise up to wherever you wanted to go downtown and park in front of it?

Yeah, that’s kinda the point. Never. Maybe the Cleveland Park Park-n-shop? But that’s about it.

And this morning, I drove right up and parked in front of my local hardware store, Safeway, Starbucks, the lacrosse store, the bike shop, and Petsmart. Which you can do in the ‘burbs. Which is what they were designed for.

Yup. Parking is really about convenience. Unless you’re a young person with no real responsibilities, convenience with cost is going to be a priority in consumer choices.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

NP here. The upscale City Center retail neighborhood (downtown) is thriving and doing better post pandemic, according to the Washington Post. Its convenient underground parking garage is heavily used, and there is direct access to the 9th Street Tunnel / SW SE Freeway. City Center also benefits from proximity to the Metro Center station, proximity to high end hotels, the convention center, offices, high end residential, and of course, density and walkability.

+100. And that used to be a giant surface parking lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to note that La Cosecha has a large parking garage underneath it where you can park for free for the first three hours. It is also used as overflow parking for Union Market.

Every large building being built in the Union Market area has a parking garage, there is zero reason to rely on street parking there. Eventually they'll get rid of the lot at UM to build another building there (with underground parking). Also eventually none of the parking in that neighborhood will be free unless you are shopping at Trader Joe's.

This is how urban development works.

Surface parking lots and then above ground garages are more highly preferred than underground garages from a consumer standpoint. All of the surface lots at Pike and Rose fill first before the garages. In downtown Bethesda, the above ground lots fill before the underground lots which never fill. People will circle the garage in Bethesda Row for 15 minutes and not even consider parking in the underground garage just around the corner that has 700 spaces.

It doesn't matter. Pike and Rose is in the suburbs. Surface lots are incredibly inefficient in the urban core and surface lots don't last. The surface lot at Union Market will be eliminated in the next few years. It's not even well maintained now -- it's nothing like the lots at Pike and Rose which were built to last a long time.

The developers who are building up Union Market are going to force all the parking underground because it allows them to put up buildings with street level retail and then high rise apartments, greatly increasing the value of the lot. Also, since the build up of the neighborhood involves so many apartments, the development is building in a customer base that does not even need a car, on top of the people who live nearby in NoMa. None of those people are going to drive to Union Market. These are people who bought there specifically so they could walk to all the amenities.

Development in the city and in the suburbs operates differently. Eventually it will be close to impossible to park in Union Market, and when you do, it will cost a lot of money, just like in Navy Yard or the Wharf. And suburbanites will complain. And no one will care because the neighborhood will have enough well off residents to sustain business there, and people from outside the city will just have to suck it up and pay a premium for underground parking, or use public transportation. And many of you will, because you actually like these destinations and they offer a lot more than anything you have in the burbs. Even at a place like Pike and Rose or the Mosaic District, which ultimately are just facsimiles of what the city offers. Sorry.

Hm. The ratio of 28 yr olds without kids or a mortgage relative to the rest of the adults in DC and the close suburbs is lopsided in favor of the latter. Spoiler alert - the group that doesn’t live in the micro apartments has more disposable income.

But, feel free to push the vision that the younger, carless renters alone can sustain the kind of CRE conversion needed in downtown DC

I don’t even understand what that word salad meant.

The rest of us get that driving to a city center and parking in a surface lot or street for cheap, right in front of the restaurant you want to go to, is not really a thing.

If you chose to live driving distance away from the city core and won’t take metro, it is what it is.

I don’t think turning downtown DC into a stripmall is anyone’s notion of an economic turnaround plan.

What is it with you "Urbanists"?! Talk like a real person, not some AI bot version. "Downtown" will do just fine.

We “urbanists” actually know DC well. The Wharf and Union Market are not “downtown.”.

Neither have significant levels of housing, so why are they doing so well and downtown not so much? Kind of kills that excuse.

Actually there is tons of housing in those neighborhoods. What are you talking about?

“Tons”. LOL.

There is a lot of new housing in Navy Yard. The Wharf has a few hundred multi-million dollar condos complimented by DCHA and Section 8 housing in the adjacent community. There is clearly not enough people that live there that could ever keep that boardwalk of mediocre restaurants viable.

Union Market area similarly just has a few apartment buildings and clearly not enough to make the vendors at La Cosecha viable because it’s at the ground floor of a large building.

Union Market itself has no housing above it (how awful!) and sits next to a good sized surface parking lot and it’s thriving.

Go figure.

Wtf are you talking about? NOMA is crammed with housing, then you have all of the rowhouses/small apartments south of Union Market. Granted SW doesn’t have as much new housing but still absurd. You really need to get out of Barnaby Woods more often.

The fact that you think NOMA is contiguous with Union Market says a lot about how well you know DC. Not much evidently. A lot of the so-called progressives trying to influence DC politics seem to live in Takoma Park and Hyattsville, which probably explains why you don’t know basic geography or neighborhoods.

wtf are you talking about? there is new housing ALL AROUND Union Market, which yes, includes the area known as NOMA. Literally, wtf are you talking about? and of course new buildings right in the Union Market area, and the existing dense residential south of it and Eckington to the North. Some of these areas could be better connected to market itself, but they are working on that with the new NOMA metro exit and Dave Thomas circle and improvements to the Met Branch trail.

Like I’m just scratching my head about this. Are you thinking that the fact that someone has to walk or bike down M St to get from NOMA to Union Markt means they are not contiguous? That’s just really odd. It sounds like you must drive everywhere and can’t fathom walking 10 minutes to get to dinner?

It’s funny how angry you get when confronted with the fact that you don’t know DC neighborhoods. Now NOMA is a 10 minute walk to Union Market.

Guess what. NOMA is also a 10 minute walk to downtown. So why isn’t downtown thriving?

You’re a joke.

Honestly can you show me on a map wtf you mean? Every building in NOMA is close enough to Union Market to walk there. I live in the neighborhood. By what definition is NOMA not next to Union Market?

Now you keep shifting. It’s funny the language change. First it’s the same neighborhood then it’s 10 minutes and now it’s next to. Blah, blah, blah.

I honestly do not know what point you think you are making?

The claim was that the Wharf and Union Market retail are failing because of lack of free street parking and housing.

Many replied to you that the Wharf and Union Market have housing all around, and most people walk and metro there.

Now you’re trying to claim there’s some big “gotcha” about NOMA being next to Union Market and not literally IN Union Market?

LOL. You don’t know neighborhoods and struggle with reading. The Wharf and Union Market are only thriving because they have parking. But they could use more. All of the neighborhoods struggling in DC lack parking, which furthers reasons for people to avoid. Heck, this entire thread was started by an OP commenting about how much Union Market was thriving judging by how hard of a time they had finding parking.

Let’s turn this around. What point are you trying to make? You clearly have none and further are now just making up untrue things for the purposes of arguing.

You’re dumb. Enjoy your Mother’s Day.

I’m very confused because the initial argument (maybe it was a different PP) was in fact that the Wharf and La Cosecha are failing due to LACK of parking and housing.

My point is that the Wharf and Union Market are in fact thriving because they are pedestrian-friendly and in dense urban areas surrounded by housing, and are accessible by transit. Therefore, the assertion that downtown can only be rescued by catering to drivers by providing free parking is untrue. The PP’s example of struggling to find street parking in a busy urban area is literally just describing living in a city.

The reason areas like Gallery Place and H St have gone downhill has zero to do with parking. Notably the part of H St that is denser with less parking (between Union Station and 8th more or less) is doing much better than H St in the higher blocks. If you think free surface parking is all it takes, I invite you to enjoy all the amenities of Hechinger Mall.

I’m sorry but anything you have to say after claiming that Union Market is in NOMA is not going to get taken seriously. Even if you had a coherent thought relevant to this topic.

This is easily the dumbest attempt ive ever seen someone use to try and dismiss an argument.

You’ve said fundamentally dumb things that both underscore your fundamental ignorance of the city but also directly undermine the central argument of the thread - which is presumably that downtown DC needs housing to thrive.

Apparently it just needs housing 10 minutes walking away. But wait, it already has that….

You’re a mess.

Downtown DC (using most people’s definition of it) actually does not have a lot of housing. That was how we even started down this path - more housing could be one route to making it more active, albeit recognizing the challenges of converting offices to housing. Because as NOMA and the Wharf show, people like living in dense pedestrian friendly areas where they can walk to stuff. The idea that what downtown really needs is more street parking so people can drive in from the suburbs is not supported by facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s nowhere to park downtown anymore. Easier to just go to the suburbs if I need something

When was the time you could just cruise up to wherever you wanted to go downtown and park in front of it?

Yeah, that’s kinda the point. Never. Maybe the Cleveland Park Park-n-shop? But that’s about it.

And this morning, I drove right up and parked in front of my local hardware store, Safeway, Starbucks, the lacrosse store, the bike shop, and Petsmart. Which you can do in the ‘burbs. Which is what they were designed for.

Yup. Parking is really about convenience. Unless you’re a young person with no real responsibilities, convenience with cost is going to be a priority in consumer choices.

I think the walkable retail works pretty well for people without kids or empty nesters. I know empty nesters that have moved back downtown. You’re buying less stuff, don’t need as much crap (like new play clothes every season or toys or whatever), and have a little more free time. Trying to wrangle kids and pick up food and supplies for a whole family without a car is what drives many people to the suburbs. But if I had no kids, this would be a great setup for me, and it’s what most of the kid-free people that work with me downtown do. I think that whole area of NE, capital hill, etc. is just a tough place to live if you have kids. Many fewer options for school as well.