Stop the Speculations :)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In private schools you do not have the option to not have counselor letter but maybe some
schools will start considering this to keep the process fair.

They cannot do away with the counselor letter from a private school as that is where the meat of all information about a student is-rigor, estimate place in class, etc. The stuff parents aren’t allowed to see!

I wonder if these letters go as far as to “recommend” certain students at certain places too or if that is done with a phone call. I’m beginning to think private schools slot the students where they think would be best for the whole class and not just the student applying. You really put yourself at their mercy if this is the case!!

Well the other side of this is parents who are shooting WAY too high for their kids. I was at a recent Big3 parent gathering at a Big3 and a parent was going on and on about current college junior who (in her mind) was forced to apply "way too low". This kid ended up at a top30 school with roughly a 3.6-3.7 GPA and a 1500. Two years later and this parent still thinks the school undersold her kid. The reality (if you look at SCOIR data) is that no one got into the Ivy league with under a 3.89 that year and countless were rejected.
This parent has a current highschool junior with worse stats than kid #1 and is saying "well, with this kid we're applying where we want. We're not getting screwed over by the school again."

So literally you have a 3.6 get into a top30 university and the parents (TWO YEARS LATER) are still not happy. There are some HIGHLY, HIGHLY delusional parents at the top privates.

But aren’t those GPAs “end of senior year” GPAs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly why the school college counselors should be providing parents with more info and not less. Backing up assertions and recommendations with cold hard facts and data that is actually useful (not the SCOIR data which is essentially meaningless if you don’t know possible hooks and that they leave the parents to interpret for themselves) would be welcomed, at least by this parent!

How is SCOIR useless? At our school they take out the hooked kids. The GPA curves are pretty darn definitive for most schools. (they're sobering but definitive). I.e if your kid does not have a 3.9, do not attempt an unhooked Ivy bid. If you're not above a 3.7 you'll probably end up at a school ranked above 50.
I mean, it's all there. I've posted about it before (on DCUM) and parents argue with me. "Oh, no way--lots of kids getting in XYZ with 3.5 GPAs.". Well, no. The actual data doesn't show that.

I really think the schools (at least some--maybe not GDS) give more data than parents report. They just might not give data that parents want to believe.

Would love it if you could point us to the particular threads you are referring to. Thx.

[Anonymous]

How does the school take out hooked kids from SCOIR? I wish ours did that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly why the school college counselors should be providing parents with more info and not less. Backing up assertions and recommendations with cold hard facts and data that is actually useful (not the SCOIR data which is essentially meaningless if you don’t know possible hooks and that they leave the parents to interpret for themselves) would be welcomed, at least by this parent!

How is SCOIR useless? At our school they take out the hooked kids. The GPA curves are pretty darn definitive for most schools. (they're sobering but definitive). I.e if your kid does not have a 3.9, do not attempt an unhooked Ivy bid. If you're not above a 3.7 you'll probably end up at a school ranked above 50.
I mean, it's all there. I've posted about it before (on DCUM) and parents argue with me. "Oh, no way--lots of kids getting in XYZ with 3.5 GPAs.". Well, no. The actual data doesn't show that.

I really think the schools (at least some--maybe not GDS) give more data than parents report. They just might not give data that parents want to believe.

I’m sure there’s useful information to be found above, but could you please specify unweighted or weighted whenever you’re referencing GPAs? Otherwise, it’s difficult to agree or disagree with what you have to say.

[Anonymous]

Unweighted-DMV privates don’t weight for the most part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly why the school college counselors should be providing parents with more info and not less. Backing up assertions and recommendations with cold hard facts and data that is actually useful (not the SCOIR data which is essentially meaningless if you don’t know possible hooks and that they leave the parents to interpret for themselves) would be welcomed, at least by this parent!

How is SCOIR useless? At our school they take out the hooked kids. The GPA curves are pretty darn definitive for most schools. (they're sobering but definitive). I.e if your kid does not have a 3.9, do not attempt an unhooked Ivy bid. If you're not above a 3.7 you'll probably end up at a school ranked above 50.
I mean, it's all there. I've posted about it before (on DCUM) and parents argue with me. "Oh, no way--lots of kids getting in XYZ with 3.5 GPAs.". Well, no. The actual data doesn't show that.

I really think the schools (at least some--maybe not GDS) give more data than parents report. They just might not give data that parents want to believe.

Our Big3 CCO was pretty straightforward to me (parent of unhooked kid): 3.9 and 1540/35 for Ivy Applications. Any one is free to try their luck, of course, but this is what is needed (as a minimum). Above the threshold: it is unpredictable. Below: higlhy likely to work out in EA/REA/ED/RD whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly why the school college counselors should be providing parents with more info and not less. Backing up assertions and recommendations with cold hard facts and data that is actually useful (not the SCOIR data which is essentially meaningless if you don’t know possible hooks and that they leave the parents to interpret for themselves) would be welcomed, at least by this parent!

How is SCOIR useless? At our school they take out the hooked kids. The GPA curves are pretty darn definitive for most schools. (they're sobering but definitive). I.e if your kid does not have a 3.9, do not attempt an unhooked Ivy bid. If you're not above a 3.7 you'll probably end up at a school ranked above 50.
I mean, it's all there. I've posted about it before (on DCUM) and parents argue with me. "Oh, no way--lots of kids getting in XYZ with 3.5 GPAs.". Well, no. The actual data doesn't show that.

I really think the schools (at least some--maybe not GDS) give more data than parents report. They just might not give data that parents want to believe.

Our Big3 CCO was pretty straightforward to me (parent of unhooked kid): 3.9 and 1540/35 for Ivy Applications. Any one is free to try their luck, of course, but this is what is needed (as a minimum). Above the threshold: it is unpredictable. Below: higlhy likely to work out in EA/REA/ED/RD whatever.

Do you mean unlikely?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly why the school college counselors should be providing parents with more info and not less. Backing up assertions and recommendations with cold hard facts and data that is actually useful (not the SCOIR data which is essentially meaningless if you don’t know possible hooks and that they leave the parents to interpret for themselves) would be welcomed, at least by this parent!

How is SCOIR useless? At our school they take out the hooked kids. The GPA curves are pretty darn definitive for most schools. (they're sobering but definitive). I.e if your kid does not have a 3.9, do not attempt an unhooked Ivy bid. If you're not above a 3.7 you'll probably end up at a school ranked above 50.
I mean, it's all there. I've posted about it before (on DCUM) and parents argue with me. "Oh, no way--lots of kids getting in XYZ with 3.5 GPAs.". Well, no. The actual data doesn't show that.

I really think the schools (at least some--maybe not GDS) give more data than parents report. They just might not give data that parents want to believe.

Our Big3 CCO was pretty straightforward to me (parent of unhooked kid): 3.9 and 1540/35 for Ivy Applications. Any one is free to try their luck, of course, but this is what is needed (as a minimum). Above the threshold: it is unpredictable. Below: higlhy likely to work out in EA/REA/ED/RD whatever.

Do you mean unlikely?

Oops. Sorry. Yes, highly UNLIKELY..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There are 2 different readers who review the application and take pretty extensive notes. Then they rate 6 components of the application - HS Rigor, Academics, Letters of Recommendation, Application Essays, Extracurricular, Test Scores. If submitted test optional, only 5 components are considered. Having no scores does not negatively impact the application, but good test scores can help. Each is subjectively scored on a scale from 1 – 5. The Common Data Set gives a hint at which factors are “very important”.

• HS curriculum is the depth and breadth of classes, as it relates to the students’ individual school. A student from a high achieving HS with 20 APs who takes 3 would get a lower score than a student from a rural school that only offered 6 APs. Academics are the actual progress of grades, and are rated against the HS peers. - think percentile or rank vs the actual GPA.
• Essays are moreso for the content; however, if words are misspelled or grammar is wrong the score could be lowered. The same if the “voice” seems suspect (i.e., the supplements are written too differently from the Common App essay.) The student has several essays to stand out to the reader. Also subjectively, “This student knows a lot about the school and gave specific examples on how they would fit in well here.” Or “This was not insightful. Unfortunately, I haven’t learned anything about the student other than they love soccer and I see that in the extracurriculars and awards section.”
• A good Extracurriculars rating could be for working a part time job or playing a year-round sport for 4 years. They are looking for dedication not quantity.
• Recommendations are scored on what the writer says about the student’s character or how they are as a student – whether they are intellectually curios or not. A LOR that merely says “ the student made straight As” which is likely evident in the transcript may not add anything to the application.
• Test scores are just that. If a student scores 1350 and their school reports that score is the top of the class, that would likely be a “5”. If the students scores a 1450 and that is in the 2nd quintile of his school’s reported scores, then that student may be rated a 4 or lower.
• Most AO read for a specific state/county, so they know the school/area the student is from…. So can go through a bit faster.
• ALL applications are read initially; however, only about half of the applications at this specific school are competitive, so Only those go through the more detailed readings. (An example of not being competitive is if the student does not have the minimum qualifications, or is in the bottom half of their graduating class without noting mitigating circumstances.)
• Also a school like MIT is strictly quantitative. They accept few people from EA because they “need” to see how the students do in Calculus. Even their athletes score a 800 on the math section of Sat 😊

After all of the ratings, the readers gives the student an overall score (not exactly an average – more holistically). It’s sort like a vote for admit (low or high) or decline. If both readers say “high admit” then the student is in. If it’s conflicting or both a low admit, the app may go to committee for a tie-breaker or end up in the “maybe” pile. Additional information may be in the file to help in case of a tie-breaker – like information from the optional interview (positive or neutral). There may also be a note on legacy, first gen, etc. (This school is trying to fill its class. Like it or not, if a legacy is on the bubble they will likely enroll over a person on the bubble with no ties to the specific school. Also, first gen is a mitigating circumstance. Like it or not, they may have only taken the SAT once in fall of Sr year because they were not aware to take it earlier. ) But nothing is assumed - this info would need to be in the LOR, additional information, or the reader’s knowledge of the area.

Scoring rubric bump

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is Duke:

1 First review would be from an admissions officer (or sometimes a seasonal reader) who was trained on how to read apps.

2 Ratings were given in 6 categories with a 1-5 scale: Quality of Academic Program, Academic Achievement, Recommendations, Essays, Extracurriculars and Standardized Testing. Highest score was 30, lowest score was 6.

3 Second review was by an admissions officer familiar with that region/high school.

4 Sometimes a third review is done for discordant reviews, or with legacy/special cases.

5 About 10% of the applicants are “auto rejected” if the ratings are too low, and also similarly another set % is sent to the “admit” category.

6 The rest of the apps are reviewed by committee. Committee votes to accept, deny or waitlist.

7 Those in the accepted pile are then whittled down by the Dean of Admissions in a process he called “sculpting the class”. This is where the class is fine tuned for institutional priorities.

8 Along with this alumni were invited to interview candidates. We turned in a short response along with a rating for each candidate. I don’t think the alumni reports were used much except to keep alumni engaged.

Helpful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A student from a high achieving HS with 20 APs who takes 3 would get a lower score than a student from a rural school that only offered 6 APs.

Obviously. But, more commonly, what about the student who takes 8 or 10 APs at a school that offers 20? That should be enough, but how does that play out when the applicant from the nearby rural county took 3 of 6 offered?

Right, good question. I am sick of counselors, admissions officers, experts giving obvious advice and scenarios. I’m interested in more granular details, and since many of us live in affluentish suburbs or cities, how do these kids compare to each other? That is after all how students are picked- in school groups, yes?

At the end of the day, your kids are competing with the kids from their own school and maybe one or max 2 peer schools. That’s it.

Are the 2 readers ranking all of the students from same school against each other if there is no class rank?

Do the private school counselor letters basically tell the admissions committee who they think should be admitted?

What’s the answer to this question??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are 2 different readers who review the application and take pretty extensive notes. Then they rate 6 components of the application - HS Rigor, Academics, Letters of Recommendation, Application Essays, Extracurricular, Test Scores. If submitted test optional, only 5 components are considered. Having no scores does not negatively impact the application, but good test scores can help. Each is subjectively scored on a scale from 1 – 5. The Common Data Set gives a hint at which factors are “very important”.

• HS curriculum is the depth and breadth of classes, as it relates to the students’ individual school. A student from a high achieving HS with 20 APs who takes 3 would get a lower score than a student from a rural school that only offered 6 APs. Academics are the actual progress of grades, and are rated against the HS peers. - think percentile or rank vs the actual GPA.
• Essays are moreso for the content; however, if words are misspelled or grammar is wrong the score could be lowered. The same if the “voice” seems suspect (i.e., the supplements are written too differently from the Common App essay.) The student has several essays to stand out to the reader. Also subjectively, “This student knows a lot about the school and gave specific examples on how they would fit in well here.” Or “This was not insightful. Unfortunately, I haven’t learned anything about the student other than they love soccer and I see that in the extracurriculars and awards section.”
• A good Extracurriculars rating could be for working a part time job or playing a year-round sport for 4 years. They are looking for dedication not quantity.
• Recommendations are scored on what the writer says about the student’s character or how they are as a student – whether they are intellectually curios or not. A LOR that merely says “ the student made straight As” which is likely evident in the transcript may not add anything to the application.
• Test scores are just that. If a student scores 1350 and their school reports that score is the top of the class, that would likely be a “5”. If the students scores a 1450 and that is in the 2nd quintile of his school’s reported scores, then that student may be rated a 4 or lower.
• Most AO read for a specific state/county, so they know the school/area the student is from…. So can go through a bit faster.
• ALL applications are read initially; however, only about half of the applications at this specific school are competitive, so Only those go through the more detailed readings. (An example of not being competitive is if the student does not have the minimum qualifications, or is in the bottom half of their graduating class without noting mitigating circumstances.)
• Also a school like MIT is strictly quantitative. They accept few people from EA because they “need” to see how the students do in Calculus. Even their athletes score a 800 on the math section of Sat 😊

After all of the ratings, the readers gives the student an overall score (not exactly an average – more holistically). It’s sort like a vote for admit (low or high) or decline. If both readers say “high admit” then the student is in. If it’s conflicting or both a low admit, the app may go to committee for a tie-breaker or end up in the “maybe” pile. Additional information may be in the file to help in case of a tie-breaker – like information from the optional interview (positive or neutral). There may also be a note on legacy, first gen, etc. (This school is trying to fill its class. Like it or not, if a legacy is on the bubble they will likely enroll over a person on the bubble with no ties to the specific school. Also, first gen is a mitigating circumstance. Like it or not, they may have only taken the SAT once in fall of Sr year because they were not aware to take it earlier. ) But nothing is assumed - this info would need to be in the LOR, additional information, or the reader’s knowledge of the area.

Scoring rubric bump

You know all colleges don't do things the same way, right? It tends to be the part time readers, the ones who get these very straightforward trainings, that assume they know how things are done when they aren't even present for the final deliberations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are 2 different readers who review the application and take pretty extensive notes. Then they rate 6 components of the application - HS Rigor, Academics, Letters of Recommendation, Application Essays, Extracurricular, Test Scores. If submitted test optional, only 5 components are considered. Having no scores does not negatively impact the application, but good test scores can help. Each is subjectively scored on a scale from 1 – 5. The Common Data Set gives a hint at which factors are “very important”.

• HS curriculum is the depth and breadth of classes, as it relates to the students’ individual school. A student from a high achieving HS with 20 APs who takes 3 would get a lower score than a student from a rural school that only offered 6 APs. Academics are the actual progress of grades, and are rated against the HS peers. - think percentile or rank vs the actual GPA.
• Essays are moreso for the content; however, if words are misspelled or grammar is wrong the score could be lowered. The same if the “voice” seems suspect (i.e., the supplements are written too differently from the Common App essay.) The student has several essays to stand out to the reader. Also subjectively, “This student knows a lot about the school and gave specific examples on how they would fit in well here.” Or “This was not insightful. Unfortunately, I haven’t learned anything about the student other than they love soccer and I see that in the extracurriculars and awards section.”
• A good Extracurriculars rating could be for working a part time job or playing a year-round sport for 4 years. They are looking for dedication not quantity.
• Recommendations are scored on what the writer says about the student’s character or how they are as a student – whether they are intellectually curios or not. A LOR that merely says “ the student made straight As” which is likely evident in the transcript may not add anything to the application.
• Test scores are just that. If a student scores 1350 and their school reports that score is the top of the class, that would likely be a “5”. If the students scores a 1450 and that is in the 2nd quintile of his school’s reported scores, then that student may be rated a 4 or lower.
• Most AO read for a specific state/county, so they know the school/area the student is from…. So can go through a bit faster.
• ALL applications are read initially; however, only about half of the applications at this specific school are competitive, so Only those go through the more detailed readings. (An example of not being competitive is if the student does not have the minimum qualifications, or is in the bottom half of their graduating class without noting mitigating circumstances.)
• Also a school like MIT is strictly quantitative. They accept few people from EA because they “need” to see how the students do in Calculus. Even their athletes score a 800 on the math section of Sat 😊

After all of the ratings, the readers gives the student an overall score (not exactly an average – more holistically). It’s sort like a vote for admit (low or high) or decline. If both readers say “high admit” then the student is in. If it’s conflicting or both a low admit, the app may go to committee for a tie-breaker or end up in the “maybe” pile. Additional information may be in the file to help in case of a tie-breaker – like information from the optional interview (positive or neutral). There may also be a note on legacy, first gen, etc. (This school is trying to fill its class. Like it or not, if a legacy is on the bubble they will likely enroll over a person on the bubble with no ties to the specific school. Also, first gen is a mitigating circumstance. Like it or not, they may have only taken the SAT once in fall of Sr year because they were not aware to take it earlier. ) But nothing is assumed - this info would need to be in the LOR, additional information, or the reader’s knowledge of the area.

Scoring rubric bump

You know all colleges don't do things the same way, right? It tends to be the part time readers, the ones who get these very straightforward trainings, that assume they know how things are done when they aren't even present for the final deliberations.

It’s really actually helpful for those of us who don’t live and breathe this process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this happens at many schools.

Just because it happens at many schools does not make it right. Private schools cannot rely only on large donors and financial aid students. It is not a sustainable model when tuition is skyrocketing. If these schools continue to coddle the large donors, athletes, and lifers, in the college admissions process, guess what? The "middle class" families will leave and fewer will want to enter. Everybody paid the same purchase price to attend the school, they should be treated fairly and equally. In fact, non financial aid families who are full pay but not big donors, sacrifice a lot of their income to enable their students to attend private schools. Their hard-earned money is wasted because the schools don't care about their students in the college admissions process.

I think the truth is that the private schools have very little influence over what kid gets into what college. It is determined by the kid and parents. Kids that get into T20 schools are either hooked (VIP parent, legacy parent, URM, recruited athlete) or the kid has a >3.9 GPA and is top 15% of class.

You are totally correct that parents paying full freight with no hook and a kid with a 3.6-3.8 GPA get screwed in that the kid ends up in a college that they could have been accepted to from a public high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are 2 different readers who review the application and take pretty extensive notes. Then they rate 6 components of the application - HS Rigor, Academics, Letters of Recommendation, Application Essays, Extracurricular, Test Scores. If submitted test optional, only 5 components are considered. Having no scores does not negatively impact the application, but good test scores can help. Each is subjectively scored on a scale from 1 – 5. The Common Data Set gives a hint at which factors are “very important”.

• HS curriculum is the depth and breadth of classes, as it relates to the students’ individual school. A student from a high achieving HS with 20 APs who takes 3 would get a lower score than a student from a rural school that only offered 6 APs. Academics are the actual progress of grades, and are rated against the HS peers. - think percentile or rank vs the actual GPA.
• Essays are moreso for the content; however, if words are misspelled or grammar is wrong the score could be lowered. The same if the “voice” seems suspect (i.e., the supplements are written too differently from the Common App essay.) The student has several essays to stand out to the reader. Also subjectively, “This student knows a lot about the school and gave specific examples on how they would fit in well here.” Or “This was not insightful. Unfortunately, I haven’t learned anything about the student other than they love soccer and I see that in the extracurriculars and awards section.”
• A good Extracurriculars rating could be for working a part time job or playing a year-round sport for 4 years. They are looking for dedication not quantity.
• Recommendations are scored on what the writer says about the student’s character or how they are as a student – whether they are intellectually curios or not. A LOR that merely says “ the student made straight As” which is likely evident in the transcript may not add anything to the application.
• Test scores are just that. If a student scores 1350 and their school reports that score is the top of the class, that would likely be a “5”. If the students scores a 1450 and that is in the 2nd quintile of his school’s reported scores, then that student may be rated a 4 or lower.
• Most AO read for a specific state/county, so they know the school/area the student is from…. So can go through a bit faster.
• ALL applications are read initially; however, only about half of the applications at this specific school are competitive, so Only those go through the more detailed readings. (An example of not being competitive is if the student does not have the minimum qualifications, or is in the bottom half of their graduating class without noting mitigating circumstances.)
• Also a school like MIT is strictly quantitative. They accept few people from EA because they “need” to see how the students do in Calculus. Even their athletes score a 800 on the math section of Sat 😊

After all of the ratings, the readers gives the student an overall score (not exactly an average – more holistically). It’s sort like a vote for admit (low or high) or decline. If both readers say “high admit” then the student is in. If it’s conflicting or both a low admit, the app may go to committee for a tie-breaker or end up in the “maybe” pile. Additional information may be in the file to help in case of a tie-breaker – like information from the optional interview (positive or neutral). There may also be a note on legacy, first gen, etc. (This school is trying to fill its class. Like it or not, if a legacy is on the bubble they will likely enroll over a person on the bubble with no ties to the specific school. Also, first gen is a mitigating circumstance. Like it or not, they may have only taken the SAT once in fall of Sr year because they were not aware to take it earlier. ) But nothing is assumed - this info would need to be in the LOR, additional information, or the reader’s knowledge of the area.

A friend's son who currently attends Stanford was able to request a copy of his student file which included his application with admissions comments. The process outlined above sounds similar to the ratings in his file.

Stanford students have gone through this same file of theirs on YouTube.