Mean girls mean moms

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

This kind of situation isn’t rare or an outlier, and it is what OP started a thread about.
Once you realize that the behavior is inter generational and tolerated and encouraged at home, it feels depressing an insurmountable. The parents and teachers on this thread excusing or condoning this behavior makes it that much more obvious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

DP I disagree. Most of this thread seems to be disagreeing with OP and people talking about how their daughters excluding others aren't really mean, they just have better social skills and don't want to be friends with everyone. But the reality is their methods of exclusion aren't exactly nice nor should they be tolerated while at school.

Schools have bigger behavioral problems to deal with. They really don’t care (and shouldn’t) who is playing with whom at recess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

It's less of an outlier than you think. There are a lot of kids out there who are miserable because no one talks to them/their old friends froze them out/kids gossip about them or their families/etc. If you think it's not happening, or isn't happening at your school, you are likely just fortunate and naive.

And the whole point is that what starts with seemingly minor behavior on the playground can escalate. Some people are being intentionally obtuse, or using obfuscation, to try and make it seem like none of this is a big deal. But it does matter:

- Intentional exclusion at school is a problem. This does not mean your kid must be friends with everyone. It does not mean you must invite all kids to all things. It DOES mean that kids at school, especially in elementary, should be encouraged to be inclusive and kind. To everyone. Yes, that is inconvenient and it might make certain things less fun. Oh well. It is also inconvenient and sometimes less fun to be inclusive at work. It's just a skill you need to learn and school is for learning.

- Gossip about other kids is not okay. Yes, gossip is inevitable in life. But it should be discouraged and kids need to be taught what can make gossip worse and more damaging. Which means controlling your own gossipy tendencies. Which a lot of parents have. As well as some teachers. Sorry, I know gossip can be fun and compulsive but part of being a parent is dealign with your own toxic behavior in order to do better with your kids. Knock it off.

- Teasing/"it was a joke" -- low tolerance for teasing and not giving into the excuse "I was kidding" or "it was a joke." It seems like no big deal but it's insidious. It is honestly better for kids to just say straight up unkind things to each other than to engage in this passive aggressive gaslighting. I'd rather have kid be told "you smell and you're ugly," which is a think I can address directly and simply, than have my kid be the butt of a joke that maybe seems not that bad, and after all, they're just kidding. Because the kid who is directly criticized will be taken seriously and the kid who did it will be held accountable. When everything is a joke, the victim is often told they are "being too sensitive" and "it's not that big a deal." This is toxic BS. Discourage your kids from teasing and do not accept "I was kidding" as an excuse. It's not. If you're going to say hurtful things about someone, at least have the courage to own up to it.

Those of you acting like none of this matters are just bad parents. And I'm not "just joking."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

This would honestly not register with me at all as mean- except the gossip. But I wouldn’t sit around talking long enough to even hear gossip, maybe you shouldn’t either

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

This one is definitely real and the people who do it like to keep it as vague as possible so no one can quite remember WHY they think that one mom is a "permissive parent" or how that other mom is "weird", but that's just how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

This would honestly not register with me at all as mean- except the gossip. But I wouldn’t sit around talking long enough to even hear gossip, maybe you shouldn’t either

What if the people who were being mean were white, and the people being excluded were black. Would it register with you at all as racist?
I will copy and paste the examples:

- I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.

- instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.

- gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.

- Hosting a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

This would honestly not register with me at all as mean- except the gossip. But I wouldn’t sit around talking long enough to even hear gossip, maybe you shouldn’t either

It wouldn't register with you as mean if someone literally turned her back and walked away from someone without speaking to them? Really? Are you kind of oblivious all the time, or just when it involves someone being excluded or bullied in your peer group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

It's less of an outlier than you think. There are a lot of kids out there who are miserable because no one talks to them/their old friends froze them out/kids gossip about them or their families/etc. If you think it's not happening, or isn't happening at your school, you are likely just fortunate and naive.

And the whole point is that what starts with seemingly minor behavior on the playground can escalate. Some people are being intentionally obtuse, or using obfuscation, to try and make it seem like none of this is a big deal. But it does matter:

- Intentional exclusion at school is a problem. This does not mean your kid must be friends with everyone. It does not mean you must invite all kids to all things. It DOES mean that kids at school, especially in elementary, should be encouraged to be inclusive and kind. To everyone. Yes, that is inconvenient and it might make certain things less fun. Oh well. It is also inconvenient and sometimes less fun to be inclusive at work. It's just a skill you need to learn and school is for learning.

- Gossip about other kids is not okay. Yes, gossip is inevitable in life. But it should be discouraged and kids need to be taught what can make gossip worse and more damaging. Which means controlling your own gossipy tendencies. Which a lot of parents have. As well as some teachers. Sorry, I know gossip can be fun and compulsive but part of being a parent is dealign with your own toxic behavior in order to do better with your kids. Knock it off.

- Teasing/"it was a joke" -- low tolerance for teasing and not giving into the excuse "I was kidding" or "it was a joke." It seems like no big deal but it's insidious. It is honestly better for kids to just say straight up unkind things to each other than to engage in this passive aggressive gaslighting. I'd rather have kid be told "you smell and you're ugly," which is a think I can address directly and simply, than have my kid be the butt of a joke that maybe seems not that bad, and after all, they're just kidding. Because the kid who is directly criticized will be taken seriously and the kid who did it will be held accountable. When everything is a joke, the victim is often told they are "being too sensitive" and "it's not that big a deal." This is toxic BS. Discourage your kids from teasing and do not accept "I was kidding" as an excuse. It's not. If you're going to say hurtful things about someone, at least have the courage to own up to it.

Those of you acting like none of this matters are just bad parents. And I'm not "just joking."

Well said

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

+1

I’ve been ignoring her for months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

DP I disagree. Most of this thread seems to be disagreeing with OP and people talking about how their daughters excluding others aren't really mean, they just have better social skills and don't want to be friends with everyone. But the reality is their methods of exclusion aren't exactly nice nor should they be tolerated while at school.

Schools have bigger behavioral problems to deal with. They really don’t care (and shouldn’t) who is playing with whom at recess.

All the more reason parents should care rather than writing it off as age appropriate behavior that they can’t or won’t do anything about. Many PPs here are saying exactly that: I don’t care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't give them an opportunity to be mean to you. Ignore them!

x100000

Come on. Don't be ridiculous. When your kids wants to join in a game at recess and the other girls say "NO!" and run away from you how do you ignore that? Is your solution that the kid who just wants to play should know their place and never even ask? Just sit there on a bench alone? No.

This reads like you really want your kid to be in the “in crowd” and are fighting reality. 2nd-3rd grade is old enough for kids to flock towards people they enjoy spending time with.

Can we agree to ignore this PP? Saying it’s ok for 7 and 8 year olds to be left out at school because others want to only play with kids they “flock towards” is insane.

Kids don’t have any choice over whether or not they are at school! A certain level of kindness and inclusion in a compulsory education environment should be required and expected by parents.

Girl, you are literally telling other posters to ignore me because you don’t like my messaging. You may need to go back to elementary school and get your head on straight. Practice what you preach! don’t hate the player, hate the game!

She is telling people to ignore a bully.
If you want to engage in this behavior and teach your kids to write mean notes or make fun of kids for having special needs, then go for it.

No one has to listen to you tell us why it’s okay.

You’re projecting. No one is saying that behavior is okay.

We are talking about:

- Excluding other girls
- Making fun of other girls or boys (verbally or in notes/pictures that are passed around the classroom)
- Telling kids not to play with or be friends with certain girls or boys.

Many people are saying that it’s okay, developmentally appropriate, and that it isn’t really “mean.”

And their moms are doing this to you also, as per the OP? Means girls and their mean mom?

What do you think, pp? What’s your experience with girls who engage in this behavior?
Are their moms volunteering at soup kitchens and trying to reach out to recent immigrants to teach them about PowerSchool?

Yes. I literally never had another mom from school be “mean” to me.

I haven’t either. I’m an attractive UMC white lady. Not a lot of people are mean to me. But I can recognize when they are mean to other people.

By doing what? Not saying hi at drop off? Not letting you bring the Frankenstein cookies to the Halloween party and telling you you have to bring the gross candy corn instead?

More or less. Maybe I will be talking to another mom, and a third mom will come over to say hi, and the person I’m chatting with will literally turn her back or walk away.
Or instead of putting out a sign up sheet or having the teacher send an email about volunteering for the Halloween party so anyone can participate, they only invite their friends.
Or gossiping about how another mom is dirty or gross in some way.
Or having a school party or fundraiser and only advertising it to certain people so the less desirable people don’t show.

This would honestly not register with me at all as mean- except the gossip. But I wouldn’t sit around talking long enough to even hear gossip, maybe you shouldn’t either

It wouldn't register with you as mean if someone literally turned her back and walked away from someone without speaking to them? Really? Are you kind of oblivious all the time, or just when it involves someone being excluded or bullied in your peer group?

No, I would assume she wants to talk to someone else and talk my cue to happily leave

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

It's less of an outlier than you think. There are a lot of kids out there who are miserable because no one talks to them/their old friends froze them out/kids gossip about them or their families/etc. If you think it's not happening, or isn't happening at your school, you are likely just fortunate and naive.

And the whole point is that what starts with seemingly minor behavior on the playground can escalate. Some people are being intentionally obtuse, or using obfuscation, to try and make it seem like none of this is a big deal. But it does matter:

- Intentional exclusion at school is a problem. This does not mean your kid must be friends with everyone. It does not mean you must invite all kids to all things. It DOES mean that kids at school, especially in elementary, should be encouraged to be inclusive and kind. To everyone. Yes, that is inconvenient and it might make certain things less fun. Oh well. It is also inconvenient and sometimes less fun to be inclusive at work. It's just a skill you need to learn and school is for learning.

- Gossip about other kids is not okay. Yes, gossip is inevitable in life. But it should be discouraged and kids need to be taught what can make gossip worse and more damaging. Which means controlling your own gossipy tendencies. Which a lot of parents have. As well as some teachers. Sorry, I know gossip can be fun and compulsive but part of being a parent is dealign with your own toxic behavior in order to do better with your kids. Knock it off.

- Teasing/"it was a joke" -- low tolerance for teasing and not giving into the excuse "I was kidding" or "it was a joke." It seems like no big deal but it's insidious. It is honestly better for kids to just say straight up unkind things to each other than to engage in this passive aggressive gaslighting. I'd rather have kid be told "you smell and you're ugly," which is a think I can address directly and simply, than have my kid be the butt of a joke that maybe seems not that bad, and after all, they're just kidding. Because the kid who is directly criticized will be taken seriously and the kid who did it will be held accountable. When everything is a joke, the victim is often told they are "being too sensitive" and "it's not that big a deal." This is toxic BS. Discourage your kids from teasing and do not accept "I was kidding" as an excuse. It's not. If you're going to say hurtful things about someone, at least have the courage to own up to it.

Those of you acting like none of this matters are just bad parents. And I'm not "just joking."

Well said

Agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, mean girls befriend before they start treating you poorly.

Like the worst bullying I've experienced wasn't done girl who just didn't want to be friends with me. That doesn't even register. Everyone experiences that and it's not that big a deal.

The mean girl experiences I've had have happened when I WAS part of a group, and then within the context of that friendship, one or more members of the group started making fun of me (but always under the cover of "it's a joke! We're kidding of course"), talking about me behind my back (often using things i had confided in them specifically because they were my friends as fodder), of excluding me from group activities (and going out of their way to let me know the rest of the group is doing something i had previously been invited to, but not this time).

This is why mean girl behavior is so insidious. It's not bullying from some random kid in a playground. It's bullying from the people who are, ostensibly, your friends. And who you might have trusted with sensitive info, or who might know things about you.

Also, it's not just the "popular girls" who engage in this. It can happen in just about any friend group where it's tolerated.

So I don't even understand what is being argued about on this thread but it doesn't seem to have much to do with how mean girl behavior actually works.

Oh, and yes-- often kids who do this have parents who do it. Especially the gossip, because when kids hear their parents gossiping about their friends, it normalizes that behavior.

This is the problem with these discussions. Everyone has a different idea of what’s “mean.” Toxicity, emotional abuse, narcissism exists in little girls, usually intergenerationally, but other people are talking about exclusion. One is not always a problem. The other won’t be fixed by a school or by conversation with an adult. You just have to teach your kid to find their healthy friendships, and there will be some trial and error involved. The errors will hurt, but it’s part of the process.

I'm the PP and I disagree. If it's low level and the kids can move on quickly okay. But what I just described should not be "part of the process." I once had a friend group turn on me, spread a vicious rumor that made me an outcast with everyone, not just my supposed friends, and literally pretend I didn't exist at school. It was excruciating and I started self-harming just to remind myself that I existed because the pain of cutting felt good compared to the pain of being made invisible every day. I think I may still have PTSD from this experience.

And yes, the school and adults could have intervened. I ultimately wound up switching schools and starting over, but that was a long and academically disruptive process. It should never have been allowed to escalate as it did.

Which is why the attitude that "mild" mean girl behavior should be ignored and accepted as normal bothers me. My experience was mild until it wasn't. The acceptance of gossip, teasing, and exclusion by the adults around us made it possible for my "friends" to keep escalating until my school life was a daily misery.

So yeah, if kids are intentionally excluding on the playground, it's a problem and you as an adult should explain why that behavior isn't okay. Kids are welcome to have whatever friends they want after school, but at school you have to be inclusive. Teasing and gossip are anti-social behaviors that should be discouraged.

Kids kill themselves over these behaviors. You'd think that would be enough to get you to care.

Your situation and to the degree you describing is an outlier and not what OP started a thread about. Otherwise she would have included it in her OP; not made a post about how moms are like their daughters.

DP I disagree. Most of this thread seems to be disagreeing with OP and people talking about how their daughters excluding others aren't really mean, they just have better social skills and don't want to be friends with everyone. But the reality is their methods of exclusion aren't exactly nice nor should they be tolerated while at school.

Schools have bigger behavioral problems to deal with. They really don’t care (and shouldn’t) who is playing with whom at recess.

My school isn't filled with the bigger behavior problems you mention. If you talk to the teacher she will get the kids together to talk it out at our school if it's an ongoing issue.