Feeling cut off from God

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How was yet another thread hijacked to talk about atheism and atheist victimhood?

+1 I am not religious but the constant hijacking and whining is making me think atheists are crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How was yet another thread hijacked to talk about atheism and atheist victimhood?

+1 I am not religious but the constant hijacking and whining is making me think atheists are crazy.

The most ironic post of the day!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

Thanks for these links. Clicking on the Smithsonian one, I found this 2017 article by the polling firm 538, suggesting that more atheists “coming out” helps improve their overall perception.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/way-more-americans-may-be-atheists-than-we-thought/
MAY 18, 2017, AT 11:55 AM
Way More Americans May Be Atheists Than We Thought
…
Attitudes about atheists are quickly changing, driven by the same powerful force that transformed opinion on gay rights: More and more people know an atheist personally, just as the number of people who report having a gay friend or family member has more than doubled over the past 25 years or so. Despite the fears that some nonbelievers have about coming out, 60 percent of Americans report knowing an atheist. Ten years ago, less than half the public reported knowing an atheist. Today, young adults are actually more likely to know an atheist than an evangelical Christian.

Then there are former evangelical Christians who become atheists. I know a few of those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

It's probably due to the way they were raised. It's a Pascal's wager type thing. I sometimes wonder "what if they're right?" And then go "nah."
It certainly would be helpful if anyone who died came back to tell about it, but that has never happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

I've been asked too. Innocently, I think, from people I run into from the church I used to go to. It's like they realize they haven't seen me in a while and assume I must be going to church somewhere else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

Nobody but the other atheists who obsessively post here believe you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

Nobody but the other atheists who obsessively post here believe you.

o.k., God bless you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

Nobody but the other atheists who obsessively post here believe you.

o.k., God bless you

Isn’t blessing someone a violation of their civil rights? I need to contact my attorney- I am being oppressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

Nobody but the other atheists who obsessively post here believe you.

o.k., God bless you

Isn’t blessing someone a violation of their civil rights? I need to contact my attorney- I am being oppressed.

I wish God could come into your heart and stop you from being such a cynical assh*le. These religion-related threads would be so much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this thread because of the complaint in website feedback. I am an atheist, I feel like I'll be up front about that, but I am a lapsed Catholic and have spent a lot of time marinating on these topics and I do not have ill will toward religion (although I do believe some people have used religion to do evil throughout history).

OP I think many people are experiencing a version of what is happening to you in many aspects of life. Many of the activities and groups and communities we used to connect with one another have been damaged by the pandemic and the time apart. It is an adventure we are all undertaking to find a way back to one another. I would take solace in the fact that it is still new and it will likely take another couple of years for us all to find our footing in this new normal. While I can't necessarily speak to reigniting faith, I do feel like reigniting passion in any activity takes time and commitment and openness and, critically, consistency. Showing up and putting yourself out there can make all the difference.

I think its really unfortunate that a few posters wanted to label you a troll and appear to have fabricated arguments with atheists to bring this thread so far off topic to argue about whether all gods are the same. I think it is less complicated than people are making it out to be. There are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and on and on and there are some people who are agnostic but see the common threads from cultures and believe in a god that they are uncomfortable naming and there are people who believe in no god. Simply believing different things is not disrespectful. It can be true that a Muslim and a Christian believe fervently and truly that their gods are not the same, and that an entirely different human sees the similarities between them and comes to the conclusion that they are based on the same God. It could be that none of the three are right, it could be that any combination of them are right. Faith is when you choose what to believe, but the reality is that we are all just trying to find an explanation, and generally we're not trying to be mean to one another when we disagree.

I think the divisiveness here (which I am surprised to see I think comes from a Christian who is preemptively aggressively postured against atheists) is not going to help OP find a way back to their faith. I think the best advice you will get here OP is to get off of DCUM and find a more supportive community.

The moderator deleted some of the more hateful atheist comments, so you don’t see them now.

For the record, I’m not the person calling OP a troll and I think that was just one poster. I also raised no objection to OP exploring Buddhism.

As an atheist you’re perhaps oblivious to how some of the atheist posts are landing. As early as the bottom of the first page an atheist starts pushing the argument that religion is man-made and pursues that line of argument for several pages. At the top of the second an atheist snarks, “yeah my god is better than your fake god….” and then later on page 2 an atheist threatens to post “crazy stuff” from the Bible. By page 3 an atheist is claiming the NT is anti-women. None of which OP asked about, and all of which represent hijacking.

IMO the basic problem is that Christians actually expect to be able to ask questions and get sincere answers, which runs hard up against atheists’ special animus for Christians. Note that Muslims and Jews rarely start threads—they seem to have learned to get their religious advice elsewhere. Christians should take a page from their book and stop bothering with this forum.

Most of this is incorrect, and a misrepresentation of what was said. And none of it would be reportable as out of line with discussing religion (which is what the sub-forum is for). Are you the one who reported the post?

The person who said religion is “man made” is Catholic not atheist.

Atheists said it too.

Which tells us that an atheist and a catholic think religion is man-made. Maybe others think that too. I do - former Catholic atheist.

If you read the exchange, they mean somewhat different things by “religion.” The Catholic is arguing that God is real but religious rules are man-made. The atheist argued that all of it—God plus rules—are man-made.

I’m the Catholic and I was taught religion was man made.

In a different thread I stated that I was taught that most stories in the Bible are not real but parables like Adam and Eve or Noah and people flipped out.

Religion is man-made. This is so obvious it shouldn't even be controversial. I believe, however, the person reporting the thread interprets that comment as being the same as "God is man-made," (which is different entirely) and is understandably more controversial.

Atheists use “man made” in the sense of both rites and the very idea of God being man-made. You can’t really pretend that’s not what’s going on here.

Of course I can. The statement that religion is man-made means simply what it says: religion is man-man. I assume you agree.
Or maybe we need to define "religion."?

Good grief. We all know you meant God is man-made. The lengths you’ll go to to try to pretend you’re not insulting religion….

At this point it’s fair to leave it alone and let the moderator see your sleazy rhetoric plainly, when he returns after his break.

Serious question here.

Why is it insulting to state a belief that god is made up by men?

God can't be man made. The idea of God can be man made. That would mean there is no god. So if OP is trying to find her way back to god, saying there is not one would not be helpful.

You might think it's helpful because it helps you but OP might not find it helpful because she is literally trying to find her way back to god.

If I said help me save my marriage and you said divorce... that would not be helpful. it's a valid choice but it's not helpful in my situation.

You didn't answer the question at all. This is about the "insult" comment. I will modify the question as per your feedback but please answer it:

Is it "insulting" to express a belief that god does not exist or is an idea made up by men?

And if a friend's spouse left them for another and moved far away with a different family and that friend asked for advice to save the marriage, it is 100% helpful to tell them they should move on, and any other advice is negligent, IMHO.

I guess none of you will touch this one? Well, then you shouldn't complain if you won't make your position clear.

This gets to the truth of why religion is so difficult to discuss. When someone else feels differently than you do about ESSENTIAL questions like this, then it can feel like their alternate belief is an insult. There are people who believe that the idea of god is man made. This isn't an insult to religious people, it is what they believe! The problem with religion is that what one person believes directly contradicts what someone else believes so it is difficult to rationally discuss it. If I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry ice cream we don't have to grapple with some fundamental alarming truth about the difference in our disagreement. You are not insulted that I like strawberry. I have not demeaned your entire worldview by labeling something deeply precious to you as untrue.

But in reality the analogy is pretty similar, we all have opinions on ice cream we all have opinions on God (or the lack thereof). Believing something different doesn't mean you think someone of another faith is stupid and just because I believe something different doesn't mean I don't respect your belief. But saying that any alternate opinion is so rude and disrespectful to believers that it is offensive to say is kind of fundamentally unamerican. We are all looking at the world, observing, and trying to choose the path that is right for us. Choosing to go right is not spitting on the left path.

Somehow though, in the US, we've learned to be civil to people of other religions, but not to people of no religion. It doesn't help that non-religious people hide so easily and play along, even pretending to be religious, not wanting to offend. As explained above, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Atheist drama over victimhood is getting old. No, you're not persecuted. No, you're not silenced, as this forum demonstrates every hour.

This claim has been directly contradicted by the personal experience of many atheists. And also by the data:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/09/22/muslims-atheists-more-likely-to-face-religious-discrimination-in-us/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/faculty/Somin_LegalTimes_Prejudice.pdf (PDF)

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/05/11/Survey-Atheists-face-discrimination-rejection-in-many-areas-of-life/2081589218869/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-strong-bias-against-atheists-around-world-180964382/

I'll stop there unless you ask for more.

I thought that last one was kinda funny: most people are biased against atheists, including atheists.
I think that's because the term is perceived as meaning anti-theist or someone who is against God, rather than someone who just doesn't believe.

Maybe so, and maybe because some atheists feel it's wrong not to believe - like some gays used to think homosexuality was wrong, so, got married or otherwise tried to be straight or to pass as straight. It's a lot easier for atheists to pass as religious .

Atheists who think it’s wrong to not believe must really not be atheists.

I think PP means not socially acceptable, rather than wrong as in incorrect.

Correct

The lie that people ask other people about what church they attend is propagated here.

Nobody is judging anyone in today’s society for their religion or not being religious.

I've had it asked to me twice. But since the persons were old, and devout church-goers, I didn't feel telling them this is a micro-aggression. I think atheists are largely in the closet still, but that's changing.

Nobody but the other atheists who obsessively post here believe you.

o.k., God bless you

Isn’t blessing someone a violation of their civil rights? I need to contact my attorney- I am being oppressed.

I wish God could come into your heart and stop you from being such a cynical assh*le. These religion-related threads would be so much better.

Are you proselytizing me? Why would you attempt to force me to believe I need God in my heart? What religion do you believe in that teaches you God must be “in people’s hearts?”

Do you see God and angels everywhere and believe supernatural beings can come into human bodies and change human nature?