Boundaries assessment update 2023

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

You throw out that it should be done for the sake of "equity." How is this going to achieve "equity?" What do you think it will do?

2. So, you redistribute and get "equity" of demographics. What does this accomplish for the kids?

Maybe, just maybe, a politician will step forward who thinks we should educate our kids. To me, that would be "equity."

To me, equity is all about course offerings. All schools should have a student body that can support a robust STEM program along with strong humanities offerings. Currently we have schools that struggle to fill a single class with enough kids capable of taking certain advanced courses, or worse, the school doesn't even offer particular courses.

The findings and recommendations from the latest Career Pathways report and presentation are significant and unfortunately will be largely ignored by the SB and the community. The document showing enrollment of Career Pathway classes per school for 2021-22 demonstrates the inequalities that currently exist.

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEP4CC430/$file/Career_Pathways_SBWS_%20Presentation.pdf
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEH4CC429/$file/High%20School%20Pathway%20Course%20Offerings%20by%20School%20SY%202021-22%20-%20High%20School%20(1).pdf

As a baseline, every school should be capable of offering and filling at least one full class of AP Computer Science A. Chantilly and Woodson have over 140 students enrolled in that class, while Mt. Vernon doesn't even offer IB Computer Science (they had a total of 26 kids enrolled in a regular 'Computer Science' elective.)
Similarly, every school should be capable of offering and filling AP Calculus BC. McLean had 133 kids enrolled in AP Calc BC, while Mt. Vernon had <10 enrolled in the equivalent IB Math A&A HL 2.

I'm not suggesting that we bus kids one way or the other. I'm only illustrating the very wide spectrum of course offerings and enrollment at our schools. The factor that boundaries play in creating this situation is not trivial.

How do you solve the issue without bussing? Do you think Mt. Vernon should offer post calc math like other schools even if only 10 kids are even taking HL 2 math? The places that you'd bus from for most of these schools barely have advanced cohorts themselves.

If some Mount Vernon parents aren't happy with the courses offered there or the numbers of students enrolled in the courses that are offered, maybe they need to stop electing local officials like Karen Corbett Sanders and Scott Surovell, who both supported the massive expansion of West Potomac HS when there was space at Mount Vernon.

West Potomac has 36 kids taking calc BC and less than 10 taking anything beyond calc BC. Hayfield has 32 and 16. How are you going to try to carve the lines so that the all end up with viable advanced math classes?

I went to a somewhat small HS and we had AP classes with less than 20 students. To be fair, the school would then only offer one session of the class and if you wanted to take it but it conflicted with band/a specialty choir/yearbook/etc., you had a tough choice to make. But we had the class. One of my friends was in AP French and that class had like 9 students.

Another thing to consider is letting the kids go to a different HS just for that class. For example, my school only had Calc AB, so if you wanted Calc BC, a neighboring HS would let you take it there if you could arrange your own transportation. For a senior in BC Calc that would usually mean driving themself. In return, the other school’s students could take a class that my HS offered that theirs didn’t. I think we had one of the only vet tech vocational programs in the area so that was our “offering” whereas other schools had AP Latin, German, BC Calc, etc.

So if you are able to drive yourself, you have a viable option, if not, oh well?

Transportation is already enough of a problem in FCPS. I mean if they could get a bus or van to drive 10 kids from Mt. Vernon to West Potomac for BC Calc in the middle of the day, great. But I don’t think “oh there’s no school transportation so we can’t do it” is a viable excuse when kids could drive themselves or take a public bus. Mount Vernon and West Potomac aren’t so far apart. Lewis and Edison are quite close and both are also pretty close to Hayfield. They have options if the schools can just be a little creative and flexible. By the way when we had this arrangement in HS it was between different districts entirely. FCPS is at least all the same district!

Great, kids whose families can afford cars can take advanced classes, kids whose families can't are sol unless the county bus schedule happens to align with school bell schedules. Schools have no problem bussing to academy classes, but I guess it's a bridge too far to expect similar treatment for kids taking advanced classes.

Do you even hear yourself? Every kid can take advanced and AP/IB classes right now at every school. This would be just for the schools who maybe can’t support the 6 kids who want to take differential equations or AP Music Theory or whatever. Those very few students should have the option to go elsewhere as an upperclassman while taking most of their classes at their base school. They don’t have to get a full transfer to wherever and they don’t have to go without taking the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

You throw out that it should be done for the sake of "equity." How is this going to achieve "equity?" What do you think it will do?

2. So, you redistribute and get "equity" of demographics. What does this accomplish for the kids?

Maybe, just maybe, a politician will step forward who thinks we should educate our kids. To me, that would be "equity."

To me, equity is all about course offerings. All schools should have a student body that can support a robust STEM program along with strong humanities offerings. Currently we have schools that struggle to fill a single class with enough kids capable of taking certain advanced courses, or worse, the school doesn't even offer particular courses.

The findings and recommendations from the latest Career Pathways report and presentation are significant and unfortunately will be largely ignored by the SB and the community. The document showing enrollment of Career Pathway classes per school for 2021-22 demonstrates the inequalities that currently exist.

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEP4CC430/$file/Career_Pathways_SBWS_%20Presentation.pdf
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEH4CC429/$file/High%20School%20Pathway%20Course%20Offerings%20by%20School%20SY%202021-22%20-%20High%20School%20(1).pdf

As a baseline, every school should be capable of offering and filling at least one full class of AP Computer Science A. Chantilly and Woodson have over 140 students enrolled in that class, while Mt. Vernon doesn't even offer IB Computer Science (they had a total of 26 kids enrolled in a regular 'Computer Science' elective.)
Similarly, every school should be capable of offering and filling AP Calculus BC. McLean had 133 kids enrolled in AP Calc BC, while Mt. Vernon had <10 enrolled in the equivalent IB Math A&A HL 2.

I'm not suggesting that we bus kids one way or the other. I'm only illustrating the very wide spectrum of course offerings and enrollment at our schools. The factor that boundaries play in creating this situation is not trivial.

How do you solve the issue without bussing? Do you think Mt. Vernon should offer post calc math like other schools even if only 10 kids are even taking HL 2 math? The places that you'd bus from for most of these schools barely have advanced cohorts themselves.

If some Mount Vernon parents aren't happy with the courses offered there or the numbers of students enrolled in the courses that are offered, maybe they need to stop electing local officials like Karen Corbett Sanders and Scott Surovell, who both supported the massive expansion of West Potomac HS when there was space at Mount Vernon.

West Potomac has 36 kids taking calc BC and less than 10 taking anything beyond calc BC. Hayfield has 32 and 16. How are you going to try to carve the lines so that the all end up with viable advanced math classes?

I went to a somewhat small HS and we had AP classes with less than 20 students. To be fair, the school would then only offer one session of the class and if you wanted to take it but it conflicted with band/a specialty choir/yearbook/etc., you had a tough choice to make. But we had the class. One of my friends was in AP French and that class had like 9 students.

Another thing to consider is letting the kids go to a different HS just for that class. For example, my school only had Calc AB, so if you wanted Calc BC, a neighboring HS would let you take it there if you could arrange your own transportation. For a senior in BC Calc that would usually mean driving themself. In return, the other school’s students could take a class that my HS offered that theirs didn’t. I think we had one of the only vet tech vocational programs in the area so that was our “offering” whereas other schools had AP Latin, German, BC Calc, etc.

So if you are able to drive yourself, you have a viable option, if not, oh well?

Transportation is already enough of a problem in FCPS. I mean if they could get a bus or van to drive 10 kids from Mt. Vernon to West Potomac for BC Calc in the middle of the day, great. But I don’t think “oh there’s no school transportation so we can’t do it” is a viable excuse when kids could drive themselves or take a public bus. Mount Vernon and West Potomac aren’t so far apart. Lewis and Edison are quite close and both are also pretty close to Hayfield. They have options if the schools can just be a little creative and flexible. By the way when we had this arrangement in HS it was between different districts entirely. FCPS is at least all the same district!

Great, kids whose families can afford cars can take advanced classes, kids whose families can't are sol unless the county bus schedule happens to align with school bell schedules. Schools have no problem bussing to academy classes, but I guess it's a bridge too far to expect similar treatment for kids taking advanced classes.

Do you even hear yourself? Every kid can take advanced and AP/IB classes right now at every school. This would be just for the schools who maybe can’t support the 6 kids who want to take differential equations or AP Music Theory or whatever. Those very few students should have the option to go elsewhere as an upperclassman while taking most of their classes at their base school. They don’t have to get a full transfer to wherever and they don’t have to go without taking the class.

If the county can figure out how to bus a kid across the county for a cosmetology class, they should be able to do the same for a math or computer science class

[Anonymous]

I would oppose busing kids from IB schools to AP schools for an AP math class if a survey suggested parents would be happier for the base school simply to have AP. I don't hear similar grumblings that kids at Madison are missing out because there's not a special bus to transport them to Marshall or South Lakes for a Theory of Knowledge class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would oppose busing kids from IB schools to AP schools for an AP math class if a survey suggested parents would be happier for the base school simply to have AP. I don't hear similar grumblings that kids at Madison are missing out because there's not a special bus to transport them to Marshall or South Lakes for a Theory of Knowledge class.

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would oppose busing kids from IB schools to AP schools for an AP math class if a survey suggested parents would be happier for the base school simply to have AP. I don't hear similar grumblings that kids at Madison are missing out because there's not a special bus to transport them to Marshall or South Lakes for a Theory of Knowledge class.

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

There should be a revaluation of the demand for IB vs AP. There doesn't seem to be a demand for a 1 to 1 ratio. It appears there is greater demand for AP to justify re-offering it at Robinson and offering it at South Lakes. Its offering at Mount Vernon seems racially motivated. I would wager demand would drop there as well if busing were offered as an equitable option for students from low-income households desiring AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

You throw out that it should be done for the sake of "equity." How is this going to achieve "equity?" What do you think it will do?

2. So, you redistribute and get "equity" of demographics. What does this accomplish for the kids?

Maybe, just maybe, a politician will step forward who thinks we should educate our kids. To me, that would be "equity."

To me, equity is all about course offerings. All schools should have a student body that can support a robust STEM program along with strong humanities offerings. Currently we have schools that struggle to fill a single class with enough kids capable of taking certain advanced courses, or worse, the school doesn't even offer particular courses.

The findings and recommendations from the latest Career Pathways report and presentation are significant and unfortunately will be largely ignored by the SB and the community. The document showing enrollment of Career Pathway classes per school for 2021-22 demonstrates the inequalities that currently exist.

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEP4CC430/$file/Career_Pathways_SBWS_%20Presentation.pdf
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEH4CC429/$file/High%20School%20Pathway%20Course%20Offerings%20by%20School%20SY%202021-22%20-%20High%20School%20(1).pdf

As a baseline, every school should be capable of offering and filling at least one full class of AP Computer Science A. Chantilly and Woodson have over 140 students enrolled in that class, while Mt. Vernon doesn't even offer IB Computer Science (they had a total of 26 kids enrolled in a regular 'Computer Science' elective.)
Similarly, every school should be capable of offering and filling AP Calculus BC. McLean had 133 kids enrolled in AP Calc BC, while Mt. Vernon had <10 enrolled in the equivalent IB Math A&A HL 2.

I'm not suggesting that we bus kids one way or the other. I'm only illustrating the very wide spectrum of course offerings and enrollment at our schools. The factor that boundaries play in creating this situation is not trivial.

How do you solve the issue without bussing? Do you think Mt. Vernon should offer post calc math like other schools even if only 10 kids are even taking HL 2 math? The places that you'd bus from for most of these schools barely have advanced cohorts themselves.

They should just livestream classes from other schools if there isn’t a critical mass of students at one school to dedicate a teacher to it. Cheaper than bussing and gives access to motivated kids.

[Anonymous]

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

But, all those "wealthier" schools don't necessarily offer the same advanced classes. And, when only one class is offered in a subject there are frequently conflicts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would oppose busing kids from IB schools to AP schools for an AP math class if a survey suggested parents would be happier for the base school simply to have AP. I don't hear similar grumblings that kids at Madison are missing out because there's not a special bus to transport them to Marshall or South Lakes for a Theory of Knowledge class.

Part of the argument is that the survey system is flawed for these situations at the far end of the spectrum. For a HS with almost 2000 kids and <10 are taking Calculus as seniors, survey results aren't practical.

The parents of those 10 kids are bound to lose any vote or survey because they simply don't have the participation in numbers to stand out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

But, all those "wealthier" schools don't necessarily offer the same advanced classes. And, when only one class is offered in a subject there are frequently conflicts.

That's fine, but if the board wants to pretend to care about equity or one fairfax, having schools with wealthy students offering advanced programing and multiple AP comp sci classes while schools that skew poor offer HVAC technician courses is a really bad look

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would oppose busing kids from IB schools to AP schools for an AP math class if a survey suggested parents would be happier for the base school simply to have AP. I don't hear similar grumblings that kids at Madison are missing out because there's not a special bus to transport them to Marshall or South Lakes for a Theory of Knowledge class.

Part of the argument is that the survey system is flawed for these situations at the far end of the spectrum. For a HS with almost 2000 kids and <10 are taking Calculus as seniors, survey results aren't practical.

The parents of those 10 kids are bound to lose any vote or survey because they simply don't have the participation in numbers to stand out.

What exactly is the preference of these 10 families that you think is going to get drowned out or ignored if, say, there were a sincere effort to survey parents at a school like Mount Vernon about AP/IB preference (or indifference)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

But, all those "wealthier" schools don't necessarily offer the same advanced classes. And, when only one class is offered in a subject there are frequently conflicts.

That's fine, but if the board wants to pretend to care about equity or one fairfax, having schools with wealthy students offering advanced programing and multiple AP comp sci classes while schools that skew poor offer HVAC technician courses is a really bad look

That's kind of weird, because the constant refrain is that "equity" and "equality" aren't necessarily the same thing. Equity could mean giving every community what it needs, which in some cases could indeed skew towards more vocational offerings.

Again, there are scores of classes available at IB and/or lower-income schools that aren't available at higher income schools (for example, none of Langley, McLean, Madison, Oakton, Woodson, Lake Braddock, Robinson and West Springfield has an on-site Academy program).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundary conversations always have tons of parental push back and no one has the balls to follow through with it. It should happen, but it won’t.

See, this is a problem for anyone who is in favor of change. One side has congregated into select large communities and have effectively given themselves a greater voice than everyone else. Less desirable communities are now smaller and the amount of input and voice will never be able to compete.
Just look at WP vs. Mt. Vernon. Without external forcing Mt. Vernon community members will always lose when it comes to a show of turn-out between the two. Then when external forcing from the SB does come into play, everyone else cries foul. It's a lose-lose for some communities.

Yep

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

You throw out that it should be done for the sake of "equity." How is this going to achieve "equity?" What do you think it will do?

2. So, you redistribute and get "equity" of demographics. What does this accomplish for the kids?

Maybe, just maybe, a politician will step forward who thinks we should educate our kids. To me, that would be "equity."

To me, equity is all about course offerings. All schools should have a student body that can support a robust STEM program along with strong humanities offerings. Currently we have schools that struggle to fill a single class with enough kids capable of taking certain advanced courses, or worse, the school doesn't even offer particular courses.

The findings and recommendations from the latest Career Pathways report and presentation are significant and unfortunately will be largely ignored by the SB and the community. The document showing enrollment of Career Pathway classes per school for 2021-22 demonstrates the inequalities that currently exist.

https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEP4CC430/$file/Career_Pathways_SBWS_%20Presentation.pdf
https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/CM2JEH4CC429/$file/High%20School%20Pathway%20Course%20Offerings%20by%20School%20SY%202021-22%20-%20High%20School%20(1).pdf

As a baseline, every school should be capable of offering and filling at least one full class of AP Computer Science A. Chantilly and Woodson have over 140 students enrolled in that class, while Mt. Vernon doesn't even offer IB Computer Science (they had a total of 26 kids enrolled in a regular 'Computer Science' elective.)
Similarly, every school should be capable of offering and filling AP Calculus BC. McLean had 133 kids enrolled in AP Calc BC, while Mt. Vernon had <10 enrolled in the equivalent IB Math A&A HL 2.

I'm not suggesting that we bus kids one way or the other. I'm only illustrating the very wide spectrum of course offerings and enrollment at our schools. The factor that boundaries play in creating this situation is not trivial.

How do you solve the issue without bussing? Do you think Mt. Vernon should offer post calc math like other schools even if only 10 kids are even taking HL 2 math? The places that you'd bus from for most of these schools barely have advanced cohorts themselves.

They should just livestream classes from other schools if there isn’t a critical mass of students at one school to dedicate a teacher to it. Cheaper than bussing and gives access to motivated kids.

The kids could just stay home and stream. Think of the transportation and facilities savings!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just get rid of AAP and AAP centers. Beef up the curriculum for everyone instead.

Both of my kids are in AAP and I’m glad the programs exists but I agree centers make no sense.

Part of the rationale was that some elementary and middle schools by themselves don’t have a critical mass of advanced students.

And they never will if they flee to centers. I don’t think AAP should necessarily mix with gen Ed but have a designated class.

Our MC/UMC school had less than 10 that were identified/selected for LIV (around 10% of the 2nd grade class). It's not a center and uses a cluster model. Moving away from the center model would mean that these kids wouldn't have a critical mass of students at their level, vs. the center that has 2 full-time classes (almost all those selected from the base school are attending the center).

Our ES is the same and I say, so? I do not like the center school program at all. Besides creating weird social dynamics, it also makes the base school even more “less than.”

Even if there are just 3 kids id’d for level 4, keep them
At the base school. Also do something about AAP. I have said many times — AAP is little more than what Gen Ed once was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Irrespective of AP or IB, there are more advanced classes offered at the wealthier schools that just aren't at the poorer schools.

But, all those "wealthier" schools don't necessarily offer the same advanced classes. And, when only one class is offered in a subject there are frequently conflicts.

That's fine, but if the board wants to pretend to care about equity or one fairfax, having schools with wealthy students offering advanced programing and multiple AP comp sci classes while schools that skew poor offer HVAC technician courses is a really bad look

That's kind of weird, because the constant refrain is that "equity" and "equality" aren't necessarily the same thing. Equity could mean giving every community what it needs, which in some cases could indeed skew towards more vocational offerings.

Again, there are scores of classes available at IB and/or lower-income schools that aren't available at higher income schools (for example, none of Langley, McLean, Madison, Oakton, Woodson, Lake Braddock, Robinson and West Springfield has an on-site Academy program).

That assumes that students in wealthy school will end up in competitive 4 year universities and need to be prepared and students in less well off schools don't. It also means that the kids at the poorer schools who do have a chance to be competitive are being denied that opportunity. I guess that Langley not having a medical coding class is cool because those kids will be at UVA and VT and a kid at Lewis really doesn't need de compsci classes.