Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a question about the helicopter pilots and the "visual separation" issue that I have not seen answered on any of the (otherwise incredibly helpful) explainer videos by aviation experts.

I understand why the helicopter pilots may have identified the wrong plane visually due to the angle of the aircraft (the challenge of seeing a plane coming right at you at night in a populated area) and the possible use of night vision goggles.

But would the helicopter not have radar and be able to see that there was a plane on the radar MUCH CLOSER than the plane they may have incorrectly thought ATC was referring to?

I am confused because I would assume with three people on board, one person would be at least glancing at radar periodically (especially while passing National for obvious reasons) and could have easily checked to see where the plane they assured ATC they were maintaining "visual separation" on (twice) was indeed where they thought it was.

I am not a pilot or aviation expert at all so maybe this question is stupid but it's been bothering me. If anyone can explain or point me to a resource that will explain, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

There are countries that use instrumentation for approaches v visual approaches. Most US airports allow for visual approaches. The prob is sometimes you can't see everything with only your line of sight. There are aviation experts who will bring up the fact that in Europe, pilots will less likely do visual approaches because tech is after process.

I am of the mind that in this tragedy, does it really matter who didn't see whom? Cause obviously someone didn't see a crash happening and it's a tragedy for all. Who is to blame? Who cares. It was 2 aircraft involved you know? We may never know.

I don't know that an in depth investigation will resolve much because in this context, 2 planes crashed that simply did not see each other. Perhaps the answer is simple - and so simple people don't want to believe it: don't rely only on visual approaches in busy congested air traffic at night too often???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a question about the helicopter pilots and the "visual separation" issue that I have not seen answered on any of the (otherwise incredibly helpful) explainer videos by aviation experts.

I understand why the helicopter pilots may have identified the wrong plane visually due to the angle of the aircraft (the challenge of seeing a plane coming right at you at night in a populated area) and the possible use of night vision goggles.

But would the helicopter not have radar and be able to see that there was a plane on the radar MUCH CLOSER than the plane they may have incorrectly thought ATC was referring to?

I am confused because I would assume with three people on board, one person would be at least glancing at radar periodically (especially while passing National for obvious reasons) and could have easily checked to see where the plane they assured ATC they were maintaining "visual separation" on (twice) was indeed where they thought it was.

I am not a pilot or aviation expert at all so maybe this question is stupid but it's been bothering me. If anyone can explain or point me to a resource that will explain, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

There are countries that use instrumentation for approaches v visual approaches. Most US airports allow for visual approaches. The prob is sometimes you can't see everything with only your line of sight. There are aviation experts who will bring up the fact that in Europe, pilots will less likely do visual approaches because tech is after process.

I am of the mind that in this tragedy, does it really matter who didn't see whom? Cause obviously someone didn't see a crash happening and it's a tragedy for all. Who is to blame? Who cares. It was 2 aircraft involved you know? We may never know.

I don't know that an in depth investigation will resolve much because in this context, 2 planes crashed that simply did not see each other. Perhaps the answer is simple - and so simple people don't want to believe it: don't rely only on visual approaches in busy congested air traffic at night too often???

Vehemently disagree. In order to prevent things like this from repeating, we have to know what happened and why. It will be vigorously investigated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People please watch this or one of the other great explanation videos posted before asking any more questions. Most of your questions will be answered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0

Thank you—this is super informative. Thinking of everyone involved.

yes informative. And really drives home the multiple errors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it odd that we still don’t know the identity of the third helicopter passenger?

I find it odd. Certainly all the families have been contacted by now.

The military rule is that names, rank and other information is not released for 24 hours after families have been notified. Hegseth broke that by releasing rank of crew members this morning because he obviously knows nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now hearing that the ATC scopes showed a Collision Avoidance alarm for 16 seconds before impact. Count that out. And the. Ask if having half the number of controllers is a good idea.

I saw that video and was not sure if it was real so did not mention it. But, if it’s real, it’s upsetting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it odd that we still don’t know the identity of the third helicopter passenger?

Might not have located that person yet

[Anonymous]

I feel like every pilot landing at DCA will now be asking ATC if there are any helicopters around proactively. This crash is so unsettling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it odd that we still don’t know the identity of the third helicopter passenger?

I find it odd. Certainly all the families have been contacted by now.

The military rule is that names, rank and other information is not released for 24 hours after families have been notified. Hegseth broke that by releasing rank of crew members this morning because he obviously knows nothing.

Not to give him credit, he doesn't deserve it, but I think Army helicopter pilots are always Warrant Officers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it odd that we still don’t know the identity of the third helicopter passenger?

Might not have located that person yet

The Army knows who was on the helicopter, is not as if the people got on without that info being recorded somewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

One question my spouse and I were just discussing is that we should find out how often helicopters flying that route along the Potomac violate the 200 ft limit for that route.

Meaning: was this helicopter doing something very out of the ordinary OR was it engaging in typical behavior (even if not prescribed behavior for helicopters on that route), and enough other stuff went on that the mistake was fatal.

I wonder if all the things that "went wrong" in this situation actually go wrong all the time, and it's just that they all went wrong at once. Which is scary because that seems like an inevitability.

This is the most common scenario for air crashes. I took a course on this in grad school, and after studying the investigation records of many air accidents, this is the common theme. It takes a very unlikely and specific combination of things going wrong to cause an air crash, but they happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now hearing that the ATC scopes showed a Collision Avoidance alarm for 16 seconds before impact. Count that out. And the. Ask if having half the number of controllers is a good idea.

I saw that video and was not sure if it was real so did not mention it. But, if it’s real, it’s upsetting.

My buddy crash landed a Cessna. (No injuries; plane wrecked ) Former military.
He forgot to lower the landing gear, and ignored the beeping, with a passenger present.
People get so locked in to what they think is happen, that they ignore what is happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

Watch the video shared above. It’ll help you understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like every pilot landing at DCA will now be asking ATC if there are any helicopters around proactively. This crash is so unsettling.

Yeah runway 33 has a Bad Reputation now.
Even for small regional jets who can best handle it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it odd that we still don’t know the identity of the third helicopter passenger?

I find it odd. Certainly all the families have been contacted by now.

The military rule is that names, rank and other information is not released for 24 hours after families have been notified. Hegseth broke that by releasing rank of crew members this morning because he obviously knows nothing.

The family needs time to process and to notify other family members. Their family member died. You can wait 24 hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

One question my spouse and I were just discussing is that we should find out how often helicopters flying that route along the Potomac violate the 200 ft limit for that route.

Meaning: was this helicopter doing something very out of the ordinary OR was it engaging in typical behavior (even if not prescribed behavior for helicopters on that route), and enough other stuff went on that the mistake was fatal.

I wonder if all the things that "went wrong" in this situation actually go wrong all the time, and it's just that they all went wrong at once. Which is scary because that seems like an inevitability.

Good point. I still think it's crazy to think all the factors had to line up just right for the two to crash. The plane banking to go to the new runway for landing, the Blackhawk flying higher than allowed, and then just the sheer 3D geometry of it. What are the chances they actually crash into each other instead of them having a near miss?

PP here and yes, it is so painful to think about because of the tragic loss of life. I did not know any one who died but I find myself engaging in the same thinking I have engaged in when a loved one died in a car accident. I had a close friend die many years ago when a driver of another car had a stroke behind the wheel and his car crossed the median and ran into her head on. Just a tragic freak accident that was no one's fault and so many things had to line up for her to die that day. I spent years thinking about that, and that's exactly how I feel today. I know it's a grief response (bargaining or denial or both, variously anger too) but that doesn't make it any harder to stop your mind from doing it.

This is not a healthy fixation.