What happened to W&M, Brandeis, Tulane, Pepperdine and others..from historically T50 to outside looking in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom wakes up in the year 2024 and realizes things have changed.

Social equity trumps academic excellence.

Ask UC Merced with SAT average of 1080 pre-covid now is a supposed top 50 school according to US News.

Thank you US News for becoming even more irrelevant.

Wait: UC-Merced has an 89% acceptance rate, has a HS GPA of only 3.6, only a 49% graduation rate, and is somehow ranked #58 by USNWR ?

How does that make any sense?

Appears the USNWR rankings are increasingly meaningless and irrelevant.

It's USNWR score was tremendously boosted by UC-Merced's 85% minority enrollment.

Ie; DEI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vanderbilt's reaction to the changes in methodology.

https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2023/10/09/why-new-us-news-rankings-are-flawed-opinion

From the article (written by someone at Vanderbilt):
“In Vanderbilt’s case, 83 percent of students graduate with no debt whatsoever. If a family chooses to borrow anyway, this is usually done to better manage cash flow on a short-term basis.”

Vanderbilt doesn’t include student loans in their FA packages - but they do tell parents to borrow money via parent plus loans if the FA they offer isn’t enough. I’d love to see how many Vanderbilt parents/families have debt when their student graduates.

I loved the tantrum Vanderbilt threw when they plummeted in the rankings.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:US News regards UC Merced - with its 90 percent acceptance rate and average SAT score of 1080 - as a top 50 school.

US News has no credibility anymore. They threw away their legitimacy two years ago when they abandoned things like class size, qualifications of professors, number of years to graduate, and all the other useful metrics in favor of social justice metrics that most people don't find useful when comparing colleges. So I wouldn't take any US News ranking seriously anymore. Niche and Forbes seem to be a little more useful these days.

What a joke. People like you are so transparent. Your favored schools tank in the USNWR rankings, so you discredit USNWR - but then try and promote other sources that play along and give high ranks to your favored schools. And then you splutter and try your very best to get people to believe you, over a long-trusted college ranking magazine. It's all pretty amusing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News changed it’s rankings formula in a way that adversely affected these schools.

+1

USNWR no longer considers class sizes. Doesn't make sense at all. Because most educators would consider classes of 25-40 students a much better educational experience than 300+ (as they and parents should)

Ditch the rankings and go by what you know matters.

Most schools do not have classes of 300+. And if they do, only a few. But do continue to exaggerate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News changed it’s rankings formula in a way that adversely affected these schools.

+1

USNWR no longer considers class sizes. Doesn't make sense at all. Because most educators would consider classes of 25-40 students a much better educational experience than 300+ (as they and parents should)

Ditch the rankings and go by what you know matters.

Most schools do not have classes of 300+. And if they do, only a few. But do continue to exaggerate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake Forest is barely "t50", somehow beat out by Rutgers. W&M has exactly the same entering class stats and %s as UVA yet is beat out by Virginia Tech on US News. Michigan State (no offense to Michigan State) is somehow t70 now. Did the average student at Rutgers suddenly become much smarter than the average Wake student? No. Is the average Virginia Tech student smarter than the average student at Tulane? No.

So-called "t50" schools with ranks that now reflect their ability to be large, pell-grant numbers, etc. will always be on the outside looking into the group of schools whose intellectual character remains clear to those who make any effort at all to look.

The current rankings are fine. Publics can get some love too.

If you want to go to Tulane or Virginia Tech, go for it.

+1
And the notion that students at Tulane are somehow "smarter" than those at Virginia Tech actually made me laugh out loud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News regards UC Merced - with its 90 percent acceptance rate and average SAT score of 1080 - as a top 50 school.

US News has no credibility anymore. They threw away their legitimacy two years ago when they abandoned things like class size, qualifications of professors, number of years to graduate, and all the other useful metrics in favor of social justice metrics that most people don't find useful when comparing colleges. So I wouldn't take any US News ranking seriously anymore. Niche and Forbes seem to be a little more useful these days.

What a joke. People like you are so transparent. Your favored schools tank in the USNWR rankings, so you discredit USNWR - but then try and promote other sources that play along and give high ranks to your favored schools. And then you splutter and try your very best to get people to believe you, over a long-trusted college ranking magazine. It's all pretty amusing.

Forbes ranks the schools that are the subject of this thread much, much lower than USNews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For example, US News no longer cares if colleges offer small classes. It does now care about number of Pell Grant recipients. Those are fine priorities. If they are yours, use current U News as your guide. If they are not, go back 3-4 years and follow those rankings.

This 1000%. While I am very happy if my kid's school supports the Pell Grant Recipients and other lower income students on campus (it's best for our society if we help ensure everyone gets a college degree that wants one), it doesn't affect my kid's education at all. However, taking majority of courses with only 25-40 students has a major impact on my kid's education. It means better access to professors as well (profs know you when you actually have discussions during classes and when the Prof actually has office hours as well rather than 10+ TAs holding various office hours.)

DP. Which school has "10+ TAs holding various office hours? My DC attends a large school and knows all of her professors, and they know her by name as well. I love the fiction that is being created on this thread.

[Anonymous]

A lot of people in denial as to the all too real negative consequences of dropping in the rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For example, US News no longer cares if colleges offer small classes. It does now care about number of Pell Grant recipients. Those are fine priorities. If they are yours, use current U News as your guide. If they are not, go back 3-4 years and follow those rankings.

This 1000%. While I am very happy if my kid's school supports the Pell Grant Recipients and other lower income students on campus (it's best for our society if we help ensure everyone gets a college degree that wants one), it doesn't affect my kid's education at all. However, taking majority of courses with only 25-40 students has a major impact on my kid's education. It means better access to professors as well (profs know you when you actually have discussions during classes and when the Prof actually has office hours as well rather than 10+ TAs holding various office hours.)

Which schools have a majority of courses with more than 40 kids? This is one of those claims that seems to get thrown around a lot here but I’ve never seen it substantiated at all.

+100
There is a certain group of posters who feel they are experts on all schools - including the class sizes at schools their kids don't even attend. USNWR is quite useful at dispelling those stupid claims. They list class sizes for all schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News regards UC Merced - with its 90 percent acceptance rate and average SAT score of 1080 - as a top 50 school.

US News has no credibility anymore. They threw away their legitimacy two years ago when they abandoned things like class size, qualifications of professors, number of years to graduate, and all the other useful metrics in favor of social justice metrics that most people don't find useful when comparing colleges. So I wouldn't take any US News ranking seriously anymore. Niche and Forbes seem to be a little more useful these days.

One hundred percent! Merced with a 1080 has average students. Average is s NOT top 50. Merced should not even be top 200. Quality of students matters. SAT is not perfect but is highly correlated to ability to grasp concepts and perform on college level metrics. Admin at schools with less capable students commonly tell new faculty to slow down the pace and difficulty of reading or problem sets to meet the average student. Admin is never happy if more than half the students get Cs. Any professor who has taught at a top 30 where the average student has a 1400 SAT vs a school where the average is 1100 knows it is a huge difference in what is possible to cover in a semester, depth and breadth. A 1500 average is different than a 1400, but not as significantly of course. I have been a post doc and assistant and now full professor at a variety of institutions: it is not at all the same when the student levels are that different !

Other than UCLA, Berkeley, Davis, and maybe Irvine, no one cares about the UCs in the DC area.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone needs to stop blaming USNews for the rankings slide.

It stands to reason that if it was only a USNews problem, that these schools would rank highly in Forbes or WSJ or other rankings.

However, at least with Wake and Tulane, the USNews Rankings are the highest rankings...BY FAR.

Actually, Forbes ranks W&M 55 and USNews ranks it #54 (WSJ is at 178). Seems about right.

Pepperdine is #83 USNews and #125 Forbes and #145 WSJ.

Brandeis is #63 USNews, #105 Forbes and #335 WSJ

Wake is #46 USNews, #469 Forbes and #137 WSJ

Tulane is #63 USNews, #147 Forbes and #451 WSJ

Thank you. Excellent points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The same Wall Street Journal that says Babson College is better than CalTech and MIT?

It doesn't say it's better than MIT. Please be accurate.
https://www.wsj.com/rankings/college-rankings/best-colleges-2024?msockid=2932ca7c507d66ae3b59c5a751806746

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone needs to stop blaming USNews for the rankings slide.

It stands to reason that if it was only a USNews problem, that these schools would rank highly in Forbes or WSJ or other rankings.

However, at least with Wake and Tulane, the USNews Rankings are the highest rankings...BY FAR.

Actually, Forbes ranks W&M 55 and USNews ranks it #54 (WSJ is at 178). Seems about right.

Pepperdine is #83 USNews and #125 Forbes and #145 WSJ.

Brandeis is #63 USNews, #105 Forbes and #335 WSJ

Wake is #46 USNews, #469 Forbes and #137 WSJ

Tulane is #63 USNews, #147 Forbes and #451 WSJ

US News changed their methodology with the express purpose of becoming more like Forbes and WSJ. Wake, W&M, Tulane, Brandeis were all t40-30+ for many, many years. Only after the movement to value DEI did these schools start to be ranked among schools that had always ranked much lower. It is because of methodology changes and methodology changes alone that the (made up) rankings of these schools have changed.

Produce any reputable 3rd party ranking then...if you think all rankings suck, then stop taking issue with USNews' new methodology.

None of them are because they've all switched to social mobility. Nobody wants to be the one that says that isn't important.

Considering at least Tulane and Wake are chasing the new USNews rankings...something tells me if they move back to where they were prior, folks like you will start touting them again.

No I still think they're bad rankings. Also Wake said that they have no plans to chase it multiple times.

+1 Tulane also said this
The rankings were never the sole reason smart kids went to these schools (as is evidenced by either increasing or stable
test stats at all of these schools). It was more like a bonus or nice in that an external source acknowledged what the people at these schools know to be true. If they don't agree this year, so what? Who cares.

Great...why are there three pages of posts trying to argue why the rankings are "wrong". Seems now it's "we never cared about the rankings". Maybe just stick with that.

I cared about US News back when it was primarily focused on the quality of academics at a school. I don't think it's wrong to want a ranking available so the smartest students know where they should go.

There is...it's called USNews. The top 20 schools have had the deck chairs shuffled...but they didn't go anywhere.

Nobody has ever accused Tulane or Pepperdine of attracting the "smartest students".

+ a million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For example, US News no longer cares if colleges offer small classes. It does now care about number of Pell Grant recipients. Those are fine priorities. If they are yours, use current U News as your guide. If they are not, go back 3-4 years and follow those rankings.

This 1000%. While I am very happy if my kid's school supports the Pell Grant Recipients and other lower income students on campus (it's best for our society if we help ensure everyone gets a college degree that wants one), it doesn't affect my kid's education at all. However, taking majority of courses with only 25-40 students has a major impact on my kid's education. It means better access to professors as well (profs know you when you actually have discussions during classes and when the Prof actually has office hours as well rather than 10+ TAs holding various office hours.)

DP. Which school has "10+ TAs holding various office hours? My DC attends a large school and knows all of her professors, and they know her by name as well. I love the fiction that is being created on this thread.

I have a kid at college ranked #150++ a huge state school - all my kids classes have fewer than 30 students except one large seminar required for all honors college students. My kids middle school had bigger classes.