Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

Most of the people I see "defending" Shiv are simply defending her final choice to say yes to the deal. Some people seem really upset about that and in particular, some people seem angry on Kendall's behalf because she betrayed him.

I don't think Shiv is a hero and ultimately I don't care whether the show resolved with the GoJo deal going through or not. But I also don't think Kendall is a hero and I think it was pretty much necessary to the arc of the show for him to be denied what he wanted. I don't view it as Shiv betraying him, more her making a decision that made sense to her for a variety of reasons, mostly self interested, while also recognizing that Kendall was also working in his own self-interest.

I'm not "Team" anyone and find that approach to the show a little strange given that pretty much all these people are objectively awful, except some of the more minor characters.

+1000
There is a poster who takes all of this very personally. Probably the same person who actually thought Shiv and Roman were plotting to murder Kendall, and not just joking around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

Most of the people I see "defending" Shiv are simply defending her final choice to say yes to the deal. Some people seem really upset about that and in particular, some people seem angry on Kendall's behalf because she betrayed him.

I don't think Shiv is a hero and ultimately I don't care whether the show resolved with the GoJo deal going through or not. But I also don't think Kendall is a hero and I think it was pretty much necessary to the arc of the show for him to be denied what he wanted. I don't view it as Shiv betraying him, more her making a decision that made sense to her for a variety of reasons, mostly self interested, while also recognizing that Kendall was also working in his own self-interest.

I'm not "Team" anyone and find that approach to the show a little strange given that pretty much all these people are objectively awful, except some of the more minor characters.

+1000
There is a poster who takes all of this very personally. Probably the same person who actually thought Shiv and Roman were plotting to murder Kendall, and not just joking around.

I think this is correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

Most of the people I see "defending" Shiv are simply defending her final choice to say yes to the deal. Some people seem really upset about that and in particular, some people seem angry on Kendall's behalf because she betrayed him.

I don't think Shiv is a hero and ultimately I don't care whether the show resolved with the GoJo deal going through or not. But I also don't think Kendall is a hero and I think it was pretty much necessary to the arc of the show for him to be denied what he wanted. I don't view it as Shiv betraying him, more her making a decision that made sense to her for a variety of reasons, mostly self interested, while also recognizing that Kendall was also working in his own self-interest.

I'm not "Team" anyone and find that approach to the show a little strange given that pretty much all these people are objectively awful, except some of the more minor characters.

These broken characters were less broken when they worked together, the tragedy is they never realize or value this. Shiv’s sabotage was saying yes, then saying no. Had she never agreed to support Ken because it wasn’t in her self interest, it would be a different show.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

It’s art. It isn’t truth. Everyone gets to bring their own perceptions to the table and draw their own conclusions. The fact that there are so many different takes speaks to how well written it is because the characters are so complex people can draw all different kinds of conclusions.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

It’s art. It isn’t truth. Everyone gets to bring their own perceptions to the table and draw their own conclusions. The fact that there are so many different takes speaks to how well written it is because the characters are so complex people can draw all different kinds of conclusions.

Well, that’s fine except for the fact the author’s description just happens to coincide with an interpretation met with an eye roll and a sarcastic “ that’s your opinion.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

It’s art. It isn’t truth. Everyone gets to bring their own perceptions to the table and draw their own conclusions. The fact that there are so many different takes speaks to how well written it is because the characters are so complex people can draw all different kinds of conclusions.

Well, that’s fine except for the fact the author’s description just happens to coincide with an interpretation met with an eye roll and a sarcastic “ that’s your opinion.”

Only after you cherry-picked a few phrases to support your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

It’s art. It isn’t truth. Everyone gets to bring their own perceptions to the table and draw their own conclusions. The fact that there are so many different takes speaks to how well written it is because the characters are so complex people can draw all different kinds of conclusions.

Well, that’s fine except for the fact the author’s description just happens to coincide with an interpretation met with an eye roll and a sarcastic “ that’s your opinion.”

Your reading comprehension isn't the best, as someone pointed out above. I think you just scanned looking for support for your opinions without reading carefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

That's not even close to what he said. Do you always oversimplify things?

[Anonymous]

I know Kendall was a bad person, but the actor was so good that his sadness was just so haunting. Everything I’m doing today that has nothing to do with the show, but I just keep getting flashes of his sad puppy face and that music!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

So when your interpretion is completely different from his, it’s art, but then you want to argue “cherry-picking “ with respect to

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

It’s art. It isn’t truth. Everyone gets to bring their own perceptions to the table and draw their own conclusions. The fact that there are so many different takes speaks to how well written it is because the characters are so complex people can draw all different kinds of conclusions.

Well, that’s fine except for the fact the author’s description just happens to coincide with an interpretation met with an eye roll and a sarcastic “ that’s your opinion.”

Only after you cherry-picked a few phrases to support your point.

Hey, it’s art, not the truth, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know Kendall was a bad person, but the actor was so good that his sadness was just so haunting. Everything I’m doing today that has nothing to do with the show, but I just keep getting flashes of his sad puppy face and that music!

Agree Jeremy Strong managed to find the humanity in that character. Honestly, all these actors were so amazing and it's a bit part of what made it hard to watch the show -- I found myself feeling bad for the characters and relating to them even though they were terrible people who made destructive, selfish choices. I enjoyed the show but I'm glad it's over because I definitely felt a lot of cognitive dissonance watching it. I'll be interested to see everyone involved do more things in the future, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know Kendall was a bad person, but the actor was so good that his sadness was just so haunting. Everything I’m doing today that has nothing to do with the show, but I just keep getting flashes of his sad puppy face and that music!

Agree Jeremy Strong managed to find the humanity in that character. Honestly, all these actors were so amazing and it's a bit part of what made it hard to watch the show -- I found myself feeling bad for the characters and relating to them even though they were terrible people who made destructive, selfish choices. I enjoyed the show but I'm glad it's over because I definitely felt a lot of cognitive dissonance watching it. I'll be interested to see everyone involved do more things in the future, though.

I wasn’t a huge fan of this performance, I found his portrayal of Ken to be a bit tedious. McFadyen as Tom on the other was outstanding. Even though I found Tom to be a much more unlike able character, his performance kept me interested. The writers were clearly trying to show Ken and the sibs terrible character was a result of their dysfunctional and abusive upbringing. Tom on the other is implied to have had a typical healthy midwestern family, yet chooses this life of chasing money and power.

[Anonymous]

Logan was a terrible father. Throughout the series we see no evidence that he tried to educate or support with sincerity any of the kids to help run the business. Kendall says Logan told Kendall at age 7 at the Candy Kitchen that the CEO job would go to him. But what training was ever done to back that up? The warped sense of entitlement seems to have come from the warped actions of Logan. He made these promises to each of the kids with all talk and no action, knowing that this would set them up to fail and pit them against each other. I can't help but think it is because Logan always wanted to be on top, like a god, and always be better than the kids. He would rather have his dynasty go to a stranger, of his choosing, than to his own children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

It’s not a happy ending. They are so dysfunctional and they treat each other like crap. So, there’s the chance they never talk again. Or there’s the chance they connect, maybe when their mom dies or something, and then go back to their dysfunctional crap where they find ways to belittle each other and make each other feel bad. They have backstabbed each other and their dad and vice versa so much. They may not drop each other permanently, especially after they barely had time with Logan before he died.